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1 hour ago, Thestarider said:

ed we have very best healthcare in the world hands down, that is why everyone in the world comes here for our healthcare system. Universal healthcare is not the answer.... My wife battled cancer for over 5 years with 3 major surgeries 2 rounds of chemo and radiation. The very first time she went to the emergency room she was diagnosed with colon cancer and went straight to surgery that day. The next day she was in recovery when her oncologist paid his first visit and outlined the plan for her recovery,  and within 2 weeks from that visit she was having her first round of chemotherapy. My total payments out a 1.7 million dollar medical bill was a little over 5 thousand dollars. I currently pay 12% federal taxes and 6.5 % States and local taxes for a total of 18.5% of gross income in taxes, now you tell what is right and what is wrong.

I have a employee who's mother died while waiting in Great Britain waiting to see an oncologist after being diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. It was almost nine months later and still no plan to save her life. He will tell you the universal health sucks compared to the healthcare in America.

If you look at it like an individualist,  you have the best in the world, but when you have a desease that attack ALL of your population, it is just naive thinking like that. The only comfort for low income people is that if they die, they won't have to sell their house and take up a loan to pay for the treatment. If we are to look at you as a nation, rather than individuals, even Cuba is better fit to tackle this crisis.

And how much have paid for insurance, education and prescription throughout your whole lifetime? That need to be taken into account too! What Americans often don't understand in these equations, is that we have progressive taxing, combined with universal welfare. Progressive taxing does so that an average income person pay maybe 25% taxes, while a low income person might pay less tax than you. Universal welfare means that ie. healthcare and education is free for everone. Even if a higher income person might pay 50-60% tax during his worklife, if we take his whole life into account, he would most certainly still turn out better than if he had to pay for schoolarship, health insurance, and maybe saving money in a fond for his retirement pension. This is the basic mechanism of the European welfare state.

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17 hours ago, ed2 said:

If you look at it like an individualist,  you have the best in the world, but when you have a desease that attack ALL of your population, it is just naive thinking like that. The only comfort for low income people is that if they die, they won't have to sell their house and take up a loan to pay for the treatment. If we are to look at you as a nation, rather than individuals, even Cuba is better fit to tackle this crisis.

And how much have paid for insurance, education and prescription throughout your whole lifetime? That need to be taken into account too! What Americans often don't understand in these equations, is that we have progressive taxing, combined with universal welfare. Progressive taxing does so that an average income person pay maybe 25% taxes, while a low income person might pay less tax than you. Universal welfare means that ie. healthcare and education is free for everone. Even if a higher income person might pay 50-60% tax during his worklife, if we take his whole life into account, he would most certainly still turn out better than if he had to pay for schoolarship, health insurance, and maybe saving money in a fond for his retirement pension. This is the basic mechanism of the European welfare state.

Let's see now--These countries have universal health care, but still the highest cases and deaths due to coronavirus

Italy- #3 in total cases, #1 in total deaths

The healthcare system in Italy is a regionally based national health service known as Servizio Sanitario Nazionale (SSN). It provides universal coverage to citizens and residents, with public healthcare largely free of charge. ... Most expats employed in Italy will qualify for the local government healthcare network.

Spain--#3 total cases #4 total deaths

Spain is known for having one of the top healthcare systems in the world. ... The country has a universal healthcare system. Basic medical services are free, but if you have a surgery, stay overnight, or receive extensive prescriptions, expect to pay a reasonable fee.Nov 14, 2017
 

Healthcare in Spain: A guide to the Spanish healthcare ...

Iran- #5 total cases #3 total deaths

More than 90% of the population has health insurance, and the government has made universal coverage by 2018 a priority. ... Since 2009, a new government plan called "the comprehensive insurance plan" provides basic coverage to all Iranians.
Medical Schools: 51
Medical Students: 1 million
Village Clinics: 20,000
Hospital Beds: 120,000
 

Healthcare in Iran - Wikipedia

France #7 total cases #5 total deaths

It is a universal health care system. ... While private medical care exists in France, the 75% of doctors who are in the national program provide care free to the patient, with costs being reimbursed from government funds.
 

Health care in France - Wikipedia

Update--Important statistic in this chart is the total cases/IM population

Country,
Other
Total
Cases
New
Cases
Total
Deaths
New
Deaths
Total
Recovered
Active
Cases
Serious,
Critical
Tot Cases/
1M pop
China 80,967 +39 3,248 +3 71,150 6,569 2,136 56
Italy 47,021 +5,986 4,032 +627 5,129 37,860 2,655 778
Spain 20,412 +2,335 1,050 +219 1,588 17,774 939 437
Germany 19,848 +4,528 67 +23 180 19,601 2 237
Iran 19,644 +1,237 1,433 +149 6,745 11,466   234
USA 18,737 +4,948 236 +29 125 18,376 64 57
France 12,612 +1,617 450 +78 1,295 10,867 1,122 193
S. Korea 8,652 +87 94 +3 2,233 6,325 59 169

USA is the only country without universal health care, but our numbers for cases per 1M population is lowest (2nd only to China), our cases are #6, but our deaths of 236 and the number serious or critical is

exceptionally low in comparison.  Therefore, our system is working as well as if not better than the other countries.

As far as getting treatment and paying for this virus in the USA--free testing for everyone.

 

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il y a 2 minutes, happyone a dit :

Etats-Unis est le seul pays sans soins de santé universels, mais nos chiffres pour les cas par la population 1M est la plus faible (2 seulement en Chine), nos cas sont # 6, mais nos décès de 236 et le nombre est sérieux ou critiques

exceptionnellement bas en comparaison. Par conséquent, notre système fonctionne aussi bien que sinon mieux que les autres pays.

En ce qui concerne le traitement et obtenir de payer pour ce virus aux Etats-Unis - libre à tous ceux qui sont infectés, ainsi que les tests

 

The US is only affected by the epidemic.

In a retirement home, you just had a dozen dead in a day.
You have millions of people who do not have health coverage.
Trump is way behind schedule to deal with this health crisis, and you're going to pay for it in 2 weeks
 
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36 minutes ago, Lurtz said:
The US is only affected by the epidemic.

In a retirement home, you just had a dozen dead in a day.
You have millions of people who do not have health coverage.
Trump is way behind schedule to deal with this health crisis, and you're going to pay for it in 2 weeks
 

That is yet to be determined, but I enjoy reading your crystal ball prognostications¬†ūüėŹ

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9 minutes ago, happyone said:

Let's see now--These countries have universal health care, but still the highest cases and deaths due to coronavirus

The epidemic hasn't really hit USA full force yet, but we will see in the next several weeks. Another factor might be that alot of people without a proper insurance might not have good enough paid sick leave, and in the next step unemployment benefits, so they can simply not afford to stay home from work. Anyway, this is not a competition, it is more a question of political ideology, and ethics. Let us hope someone find a vaxine as soon as possible. And there you probably stand a much better chance than anyone, because you have such a strong culture for private investments and funding of research.

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1 hour ago, Lurtz said:
The US is only affected by the epidemic.

In a retirement home, you just had a dozen dead in a day.
You have millions of people who do not have health coverage.
Trump is way behind schedule to deal with this health crisis, and you're going to pay for it in 2 weeks
 

Once again let me tell you the facts, no one in the US is ever refused Medical treatment if needed if you do or do not have insurance. It is the Media BS that you all overseas hear and is not the truth. All hospitals will work out payment plans, all doctors offices will work out payment plans with those who are not insured. What you don't seem to get is that all Americans pay what is called No fault Insurance in many ways, like here in my local county that has a large regional medical center, we pay 5 mils on our property taxes, and that is to support those who do not have insurance if they should default on paying, they will still receive the medical treatments they need. We have a huge Hispanic population, and sometimes because they are not legal to be in the US they default or get the treatment they need and then bail back to Mexico which is very common, but yet the hospital never ever turns anyone away. The big difference is there are no real lengthy waiting times to get treatment in the US. Don't believe all the Media BS that you receive via CNN or the other liberal Media outlets who pray on liberal sympathies around the world, most of it is simply put just not true. Most of the uninsured in this country choose not be insured, not because they can't afford to pay premiums, but by choice, and because they are mostly the young in the work force and working part time or for minimum wage with less than 40 hours a week. A month ago there were over 7 million jobs available for fulltime employment with  employer sponsored insurance, but these generation " C " young'uns want everything for free and expect that the government will give it them because they think they deserve it, instead of working hard and getting a fulltime job that provides employer assisted insurance premiums, and you can get government sponsored health insurance under the Obama Mandate that is still in place at reduced rates and is income adjusted. You see we really do have national healthcare. 

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2 hours ago, SPYING 1 said:

Socialist medical care will ration & i rather have my private medical insurance. Have you noticed that every one that needs medical care or surgery wants to come to America, that should tell you something 

Except in cases where an experimental drug are legal in the USA, while it is not yet aproved here, I think there are pretty few Europeans and Canadians that go to USA for its healthcare though. The ones who do mass flee to take advantage of your healthcare however, are Latin Americans, because they do have poorer healthcare system.

I'm very happy that you say you have a good health insurance. The question here is in the etics in only offering the best healthcare to those who can afford a good insurance, instead of prioritize after who need it the most, medically.

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3 hours ago, Thestarider said:

Once again let me tell you the facts, no one in the US is ever refused Medical treatment if needed if you do or do not have insurance. It is the Media BS that you all overseas hear and is not the truth. All hospitals will work out payment plans, all doctors offices will work out payment plans with those who are not insured.

Refusing emergency treatment would be plain inhuman. No countries do that!

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3 hours ago, Thestarider said:

Once again let me tell you the facts, no one in the US is ever refused Medical treatment if needed if you do or do not have insurance. It is the Media BS that you all overseas hear and is not the truth. All hospitals will work out payment plans, all doctors offices will work out payment plans with those who are not insured. What you don't seem to get is that all Americans pay what is called No fault Insurance in many ways, like here in my local county that has a large regional medical center, we pay 5 mils on our property taxes, and that is to support those who do not have insurance if they should default on paying, they will still receive the medical treatments they need. We have a huge Hispanic population, and sometimes because they are not legal to be in the US they default or get the treatment they need and then bail back to Mexico which is very common, but yet the hospital never ever turns anyone away. The big difference is there are no real lengthy waiting times to get treatment in the US. Don't believe all the Media BS that you receive via CNN or the other liberal Media outlets who pray on liberal sympathies around the world, most of it is simply put just not true. Most of the uninsured in this country choose not be insured, not because they can't afford to pay premiums, but by choice, and because they are mostly the young in the work force and working part time or for minimum wage with less than 40 hours a week. A month ago there were over 7 million jobs available for fulltime employment with  employer sponsored insurance, but these generation " C " young'uns want everything for free and expect that the government will give it them because they think they deserve it, instead of working hard and getting a fulltime job that provides employer assisted insurance premiums, and you can get government sponsored health insurance under the Obama Mandate that is still in place at reduced rates and is income adjusted. You see we really do have national healthcare. 

Yes, you do have a sort of security net, to catch those who fall outside your system, but that is pretty far from the idea of universal welfare. A security net is tax payer's charity to poor people. Universal welfare is a way to organize society that benefits both rich and poor. Read my earlier post:

22 hours ago, ed2 said:

And how much have paid for insurance, education and prescription throughout your whole lifetime? That need to be taken into account too! What Americans often don't understand in these equations, is that we have progressive taxing, combined with universal welfare. Progressive taxing does so that an average income person pay maybe 25% taxes, while a low income person might pay less tax than you. Universal welfare means that ie. healthcare and education is free for everone. Even if a higher income person might pay 50-60% tax during his worklife, if we take his whole life into account, he would most certainly still turn out better than if he had to pay for schoolarship, health insurance, and maybe saving money in a fond for his retirement pension. This is the basic mechanism of the European welfare state.

 

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5 minutes ago, ed2 said:

Refusing emergency treatment would be plain inhuman. No countries do that!

Yes they do, just ask the 80 year old Italians that are dying today, and yesterday, and will tomorrow. Not to mention Russia, China, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, and North Korea just to name a few. Wake up ed. Those all I mentioned are national universal health care systems.

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22 minutes ago, ed2 said:

Yes, you do have a sort of security net, to catch those who fall outside your system, but that is pretty far from the idea of universal welfare. A security net is tax payer's charity to poor people. Universal welfare is a way to organize society that benefits both rich and poor. Read my earlier post:

 

I understand it very well ed, but I don't and will never agree with it. 

It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. 

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 

Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

I am not aware of anywhere in this wise book to live by does it say rely on the government to take care you. 

"God helps those who help themselves" is correct. As an example, if you asked me to help you move a piece of furniture, but then just watched me as I moved the furniture for you, I was not actually helping you. I would be doing the work for you. Many people fall into the trap of inactivity. Many people ask their government for help, but then expect the government to do everything for them. They excuse this by pointing to the fact that government will provide according to their will and in their timing. However, this is not a reason for inactivity. As a specific example, if you are in need of a job, ask the government to help you find a job - but then be inactive in actually looking for a job. While it is in the governments power to do so, it is highly unlikely that the government will cause employers to come looking for you!

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1 minute ago, Thestarider said:

I understand it very well ed, but I don't and will never agree with it. 

It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. 

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 

Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

I am not aware of anywhere in this wise book to live by does it say rely on the government to take care you. 

"God helps those who help themselves" is correct. As an example, if you asked me to help you move a piece of furniture, but then just watched me as I moved the furniture for you, I was not actually helping you. I would be doing the work for you. Many people fall into the trap of inactivity. Many people ask their government for help, but then expect the government to do everything for them. They excuse this by pointing to the fact that government will provide according to their will and in their timing. However, this is not a reason for inactivity. As a specific example, if you are in need of a job, ask the government to help you find a job - but then be inactive in actually looking for a job. While it is in the governments power to do so, it is highly unlikely that the government will cause employers to come looking for you!

ed I believe that we control our own destiny by the decisions we make every single day. This is the reason we had the Boston Tea party !!!!

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23 minutes ago, Thestarider said:

Yes they do, just ask the 80 year old Italians that are dying today, and yesterday, and will tomorrow. Not to mention Russia, China, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, and North Korea just to name a few. Wake up ed. Those all I mentioned are national universal health care systems.

I disagree. If there are limited capacity, like under a big pandemic in Italy now, you will always need to prioritize. The difference is that here you will get prioritized on the background of how serious your medical condition is, instead of your insurance plan.

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