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[Guest bulgachica]

You're treading the false assumption line here, with Some of us are lucky enough to live in a pristine, crime free environment. Try living in a suburb where you grew up and made your home, to see it turn into a slum, full of crack heads and scum.

I grew up in a UK city with it's fair share of drugs and crime and I've seen former friends and acquaintances get sidelined with heroin and crack issues.  Mainly heroin, although it was available, crack was not as prevalent in my formative years and luckily non of my close friends or those I love were taken in by it.  My education was provided by the state and I counted amongst my good friends, and still do, kids that lived in slum areas, whilst my own family were one step away from the breadline most years also.

Later I worked in what has been called one of Britain's worst drug estates. Doing nothing noble such as providing assistance to the people there but my colleagues in that place were pretty much all under the letter H - I didn't stay long.  Add to that I spent a good couple of years living in the inner-city, which was the scene of race riots in the 80s, a place where black people lived and worked.  The drug estate was predominately white and the inner-city predominately black - the city as a whole is one of the most multicultural in Britain.

There were crack heads and scum but there were 1,000s more decent people, of all races and beliefs, getting on with their daily lives, treating each other with respect and tolerance and working with each other daily.  Parents were always worried about letting their daughters walk the streets alone before this rise in Islamic fundamentalism because of rapists.  I definitely remember there being more Caucasian rapists on the news than non-white, indeed this is still the case.

Here's the copy/paste of the dictionary definition of bigot.  You are of course free to use your own definition but for ease of communication it's always best to stick to semantic standards, so I'll stick to the accepted definition thanks:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bigot

big·ot

noun \ˈbi-gət\

: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)

Full Definition of BIGOT

:  a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially :  one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

— big·ot·ed adjective

— big·ot·ed·ly adverb

   

[van the man]

I have been watching the posts of you guys and I have to say that the quality of discussion is actually reasonably high despite the toxic subject.

I thought it was time I threw in my opinions and risk the wrath of everyone!

I am a Christian - not fanatical but a person who tries to live a good life, loving my neighbour and treating those around me as I wish to be treated. I live in a country that is built upon Christian values despite the Church of England being less used than before.

The level of intolerance of intolerance is reaching new levels of spite in my country. Everyone is offended by what everyone says. The words Racist and Bigot are banded about to help put down any argument about keeping British values alive.

My country is drowning in a wave of immigration that is totally unsustainable. A small island is heading for over 70 million people in only a few years time.

Immigration is being promoted by the EU as a way of integrating all the countries of Europe. Nationhood is being destroyed (they tried this in the Soviet Union by the way). The EU believes if we all live together we wont fight wars with each other.

What they don't take into account is that people are different. Cultures are different. The way they look at the world is different. Standards of behaviour are different. Language is different.

Mixing everyone together is not a recipe for harmony. It is a recipe for disaster.

Over the lifetime of the human race the world has developed different ways of living and developed different views of how the world came into being. Amazingly every society of people has developed a belief system based around the need for an explanation of the world. We need to know. Even those who have chosen to believe in nothing.

Now to get to my point. I want to live in a world dominated by love. I don't want a world filled with hate. Despite a history of doing a great deal of evil in the world the Christian faith has finally evolved into a religion of love. It is a sanctuary from the evils of the world. It is no coincidence that the world and his aunt are heading for the UK. We are tolerant and welcoming. We have fair laws and good business and free health care. We welcome with open arms..... BUT....

We are now being abused by the very people who come. Muslims refuse to integrate. I for example would not be welcomed into a mosque. Islam preaches love but then promotes hate. The excuse given is that extremists are distorting things. The problem is that the moderates NEVER defend themselves. They allow so called extremists to dominate. They distort things by sticking to the line of a shared 'brotherhood'. The extremist view therefore prevails more and more. The wearing of the veil and the burka are becoming the norm and yet nowhere in the Koran is dress code mentioned. This is an example of the extreme becoming the norm. Insisting 8 year old girls wear the headdress should not be the norm. Insisting that women pray separately should not be normal. Shria law that is openly biased against women should not be normal. Honour killings and stoning of women who have been raped should not be normal.

A religion built around inequality and brutality is not something that should prevail in the 21st century. Islam is a 5th century belief system that must be confined to the waste basket of human history.

On the subject of 'colour' the world must become colour blind. Never judge a man by his colour only by his character. I have wonderful black friends and Asian colleagues. What we share is a way of life. Shared values about goodness and kindness and fairness. It is not racist or bigoted to speak out against those who do not share the same values.

For those who want to lie and cheat and steal and attack and hurt, for those who want to have a different set of human values, let them build that country in another part of the world. The UK and most of the Western world is built on Christian values (not necessarily by being Christian). It is the only way forward for the rest of the world. Those that don't follow these values usually live in poverty or have an unfair society or both. The Western world has made itself rich and prosperous and healthy by working together and discovering solutions to our human needs.

I am not a racist or a bigot for wanting to protect my wonderful way of life. Only Jesus had the strength to turn the other cheek when attacked. In this dangerous world the West must fight back. Come and join us in our prosperous world but be prepared to integrate. We must not let those who hate us simply live among us and secretly (and often violently) undermine our way of life.

So there is my contribution. Don't get me wrong I am no saint. I love my way of life. I love those around me but I cannot love those who hate me and seek to damage my life. Maybe my Christian preachers would tell me off for not loving my enemies but like I say I am not good enough or strong enough to act like Jesus. In our real world such a stance leaves us open to attack and defeat. Evil is powerful in this world. It has to be confronted.

I await your responses!!! God help me!!!!

[billycox]

This very interesting. Three times this week, complaints have come across my desk from people I know concerning the Muslim situation in England. A friend in Greenwich says that in parts of North London, there are more Muslims than there are Londoners. An elderly lady of my acquaintance has cancelled a trip from California to England because she is a devout Christian and is fearful that she might express her views in public and would be in danger. A NY friend has done some research and has come to the conclusion that the Muslims have finally figured out a way to win. According to his figures, the average "Christian" family - world wide - is having 2.1 children. The average "Muslim" family - world wide is having 6.3 children, which is exactly 3 times as many. Do the math for a couple of generations.

And now, I read all of the above on here. This has been an interesting week so far. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?

[Guest bulgachica]

Excellent points and very well made Van.

I'd like to address the bigot issue one last time and then move on from it.  No, I agree, you certainly are not a bigot by the definition above.  Woodworker and Pirate accused me of misusing the word and labeling TBG and his like of bigotry merely out of my own intolerance - i know, work that one out!  These people were quite openly racist and cast their intolerances at whole sections of the globe and when challenged on it, the resorted to name calling, nasty schoolyard slurs and all the rest that is easy enough to read above.  Bigots by any other name would smell just as bad.  I definitely used the term correctly in describing them and it was warranted based on their behaviour and opinions.

I was raised a Catholic so know the Christian values very well but have been an atheist for longer than I care to remember.  Anti-religious arguments are all over the internet, so I'm sure you know them very well and that's a whole different subject anyway, suffice it to say I respect anyone's desire, and their right, to believe what they want, so long as they are not hurting, or killing others.

Which is why I can see that Islamic fundamentalism has so many people worried and scared and I'll state again that meeting hate with hate is never the answer.  I don't hate those "Old Dudes", I don't think about them at all when the browser is closed, but I will meet their derisory challenges, lies and bullying with the tools that I have to counter it.

Moderate Muslims DO need to do more to counter extremism in their religion, there are unbelievably more moderate Muslims than extreme sickos and they are not doing enough and they need to be told to do more.  That is not the same as a UKIP or EDL solution of ethnically cleansing the country of anyone that isn't a right wing Caucasian.  And let me state that, no I do not think you are a right wing wannabe Nazi for the views you've expressed.

For all it's problems, the UK is a fantastic country.  It's diversity, it's equal opportunities, the cultural heritage are also worthy of being added to your list.  These came not just from our Anglo-Saxon past but also from the additions that were brought to the island by all the various cultures that have integrated on arrival and made the country a leader in many different ways.  Am I right in remembering that for the last 4 years or something, the UK has been voted the cultural capital of the world - that's hasn't been achieved from having closed borders or giving mandates to those that seek to divide us.  The UK is a sum of all its different cultural heritages.

My point being - if we give in to segregationist ideas, if we allow reprobates like tbg the free reign to preach hate and bloodlust and do nothing to answer them, both here and in the UK, then we stand to lose the values and ideals that has made the country what it is and when that happens, what will we be fighting for?

[Guest Pirate]

Van, I am going to extract statements from your post without taking anything out of context. It is easier to comment, but apologise for taking this liberty.

Bulgachica, you and I both liked this post, but obviously for different reasons.

You did not pick up the sentiment living in a country that is built upon Christian values.

You did not pick up on the statement about intolerance reaching new levels of spite and that everyone is offended by what everyone says.

You certainly ignored the bit about the words Racist and Bigot being banded about to help put down any argument about keeping British values alive. This by the way, applies to American and Australian values too.

You didn’t acknowledge a reference to the fact that the country is drowning in a wave of immigration that is totally unsustainable

You ignored the statement about the EUs promoting integration is contributing to Nationhood being destroyed.

I will leave this paragraph as was written to do it justice, but you obviously passed over it. What they don't take into account is that people are different. Cultures are different. The way they look at the world is different. Standards of behaviour are different. Language is different. Mixing everyone together is not a recipe for harmony. It is a recipe for disaster.

You must have also passed over the sentence about being abused by the very people who come, including  Muslims that refuse to integrate.

Did you miss the bit about moderates NEVER defend themselves, allowing so called extremists to dominate. Why do you think all the moderates started leaving their own countries. Too scared to stand up for their own rights, expect us (sorry, some of us) to fight their battles for them, but then abuse and bite the hand that feeds them, bringing the very culture that destroyed their society with them. The extremists then infiltrate and the cycle starts all over again.

What about Islam being a 5th century belief system that must be confined to the waste basket of human history. Sounds a bit like a bigot to me.

Did you also not understand that the wonderful black friends and Asian colleagues relationship is based on a shared way of life, shared values about goodness and kindness and fairness and it is not racist or bigoted to speak out against those who do not share the same values.

I will also leave this paragraph as was written, as you must have missed this one as well. I am not a racist or a bigot for wanting to protect my wonderful way of life. Only Jesus had the strength to turn the other cheek when attacked. In this dangerous world the West must fight back. Come and join us in our prosperous world but be prepared to integrate. We must not let those who hate us simply live among us and secretly (and often violently) undermine our way of life.

What about the bit about that loving our enemies in our real world leaves us open to attack and defeat and that Evil is powerful in this world and it has to be confronted.

Van, obviously a gentleman at heart (there aren’t many of them left) has eloquently and without all my pent up anger and total frustration at what I experience daily, picked up on all the key issues.

[Guest Pirate]

This very interesting. Three times this week, complaints have come across my desk from people I know concerning the Muslim situation in England. A friend in Greenwich says that in parts of North London, there are more Muslims than there are Londoners. An elderly lady of my acquaintance has cancelled a trip from California to England because she is a devout Christian and is fearful that she might express her views in public and would be in danger. A NY friend has done some research and has come to the conclusion that the Muslims have finally figured out a way to win. According to his figures, the average "Christian" family - world wide - is having 2.1 children. The average "Muslim" family - world wide is having 6.3 children, which is exactly 3 times as many. Do the math for a couple of generations.

And now, I read all of the above on here. This has been an interesting week so far. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?

That's easy, especially if you are a religious person, HELL is what's going on.

[Guest bulgachica]

What on Earth??? Just because you say something doesn't make it so Pirate. I read the post with interest.  He genera

You did not pick up the sentiment living in a country that is built upon Christian values.

Yes I did. I acknoweldged by attesting to the fact that I myself was educated in a Catholic school in the same country.

You did not pick up on the statement about intolerance reaching new levels of spite and that everyone is offended by what everyone says.

Yes I did, in fact I used a current example:

"These people were quite openly racist and cast their intolerances at whole sections of the globe and when challenged on it, they resorted to name calling, nasty schoolyard slurs and all the rest that is easy enough to read above.  Bigots by any other name would smell just as bad.  I definitely used the term correctly in describing them and it was warranted based on their behaviour and opinions."  Theyare clearly butthurt and offended that I share a different view to them.  However, their own tool to combat that is to be offensive.  Would you like me to copy/paste the defintions of offensive and offended too?

You certainly ignored the bit about the words Racist and Bigot being banded about to help put down any argument about keeping British values alive. This by the way, applies to American and Australian values too.

Sigh. I'm not going to copy paste what I've written in previous posts. Ah fuck it I will - Van read those also:

"That vast majority of people who speak out against these conditions are not hate-filled and blinded by racial or religious intolerance.  They are unfairly tarnished with the racist label because the racists are fucking up the real issues for everyone."

And in my last reply:

"Bigots by any other name would smell just as bad.  I definitely used the term correctly in describing them and it was warranted based on their behaviour and opinions."

I am not "bandying" the word around lightly.  Would you like me to repost that definition as well as you seem unable to reread things.

You didn’t acknowledge a reference to the fact that the country is drowning in a wave of immigration that is totally unsustainable

That's because I don't think it is currently unsustainable.  These are long posts by the three of us.  I'm balancing what I respond to with knowledge that no one likes to read an essay and your responses here justify that as you plainly aren't reading or digesting what I've written.

You ignored the statement about the EUs promoting integration is contributing to Nationhood being destroyed.

I'm not a nationalist that's why.  Whilst I'm certainly not pro the unelected hacks in Brussels, or the Euro currency for that matter, I do believe that a more integrated Europe will boost employment, education and travel opportunities, my life has benefited greatly from these integration policies.  You are thinking about integration of different races which is no doubt anathema to you. "EU" and "integration" when used together mean something else entirely mate.

If you want responses to each and every point in a post, then I suggest you keep yours short, I will try to do the same.  I'm quite simply not going to go through the whole list now, it will take ages BUT as I said previously - I pretty much agree with everything else Van has said.

I personally think we agree on the key issues but have different approaches to dealing with them.  If you are interested in my approach to dealing with them then I will tell you in a new post after you have picked through this one.

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[Guest bulgachica]

But to be honest, I'm not going to change your mind or indeed make you think twice about the reprobates you tacitly support, so why bother?  I do believe I asked you that once before.

I've got no qualms or questions with the way I dealt with the "Old Dudes", it's a shame that they have now tarnished even those two words with their shite.  It is quite clear to them now that if they bully people, or air their racist and bigoted views then I will be around to smack them about a bit until they see sense enough to stop.  This is what, the 2nd or 3rd time now? Even if I just deflect their bullshit on to me, then I'll have done whoever their original target was a favour and generally that target seems to be a non-native English speaker, which I'm sure those wolves see as easy pickings.

It has been 2 days worth of this and I need to do other things other than sit at the computer and try to rationalise with you people but I've stated my intent and I will be vigilant.

Van, Pirate, you write and argue well. It is obvious I don't agree with you Pirate but at least you are able to state your position clearly and without ire, and whilst I don't condone your opinions, those two things are to be commended.

Adieu, adieu!

[Linked]

As someone who has spent a lot of time in the Middle East, and had quite a bit of interaction with the local nationals there, I would like to put in my two cents.

  Though we were not supposed to speak to locals about religion, I  carried on day-long conversations with our terps.  They were "moderate" Muslims.  Even they admitted that there will be a calafate at some point.  The Islam teachings state that any non-muslim that will not conform needs to be put to death.  They learns this from the time they are born.  Most Iraqi muslims are different in the fact they were under Brit rule for so long.  There are even a few Christians, but most will not voice their opinions because their families and the majority of other muslims will KILL them.  You guys have been saying moderate Muslims refuse to speak out against the extremist.  There are two reasons for this, which I have directly asked a muslim, One is moderate muslims are only moderate because they do not believe in doing the killing themselves. Even though allah says it is what needs to be done, they do not want to be killers. Two, extremist muslims are the majority of the Islam religion.  Moderates cannot speak out against the extremists because they will be killed.  that is why there is so many muslim on muslim attacks right now.  Moderates have spoke out and they were speaking out in Iraq and that's why they are still killing eachother there. 

When you have had the ability to see a different culture on their own terf and have the people tell you that sooner or later they will kill you because you are not Islamic is eye opening.  These were people who were helping the coalition forces.  These people said they were only helping now so another murderer like saddam didn't take power.  These were the moderate muslims you speak of.  Extremist believed they didn't need our help.  Islam in it's own words preaches hate and death to all that are not Islam.  They believe women are only on this earth to produce children and nothing more than dirt.  But, I have seen some of you defending them.  It is asinine.  If you want to call me a bigot go right ahead. I do hate Islam and anyone who says it's peaceful.  They only want peace for muslims they don't want peace with anyone but, not Christians, jews, or atheists, just muslims. 

[Nick]

Fuck's sake, they're all crawling out of the woodwork now.

I don't know Pirate? Are you a racist and a bigot? Do you hate non white-people for no better reason than they are not white? Do you hate Non-Australians for no better reason than they're a "bit different" to you.

Your post is tacitly implying that because I'm against these things I support Muslim extremism and the murder of innocent people, right? Are you stating that only racists and bigots care enough about the atrocities that these fucks are carrying out across the world and on our own doorsteps? 

I just googled it, about 50% of Nigeria is Muslim, so it's about a 50% chance that the families of those kidnapped girls are Muslim also.  So how do you stand on that? Muslim kidnapping Muslim, leaving Muslim families distraught? Is there a bad guy in all this in your narrow mind, or would you be happy for the kidnappers to kill the Muslim girls then turn their guns on their Muslim selves.

"But this isn't really happening in the name of Allah, it's purely my imagination, so I'm a racist and a bigot" You're argument is pathetic in the extreme, and an insult to, well, to pretty much every fucking body that works for positive change in the world!  Well done mate.

what is the deferent's between Moslem  and Jewish  they all the Abraham Children

Ultra-Orthodox young men curse and spit at Christian clergymen in the streets of Jerusalem's Old City as a matter of routine. In most cases the clergymen ignore the attacks

http://www.adl.org/israel-international/israel-middle-east/content/backgroundersarticles/price-tag-attacks.html

in my opinion they all same

What's the difference between Muslims and Jews? In my opinion they are all the same. You are kidding?

First, the Muslims hate the Jews, ever since they were ordered to by Mohammed. If they could wipe them out tomorrow they would. They've all been trying long enough.

In addition, the Jews aren't trying to blow us up and take over the world. Pull your head out of your arse and take a good long look around you.

The article you referenced had absolutely nothing to do with Christians being spat on, but it was really interesting. Thank you, I suggest you all read it. It was about the Israeli govt. cracking down on militant Jews, for criminal acts against, amongst others, Palestinians. There's tolerance for you.

I love throwing the word bigot around, it's always guaranteed to get people going because it has really lost its meaning. Your assumptions are always that the disagreement is based on prejudice, rather than principle. Big, big difference. I can only assume that is the reason for your blind ignorance. Everything will be alright if we treat people with respect and accept each others differences. That would work, as I keep saying, if both sides play by the rules. One of my favourite movie lines, "taking a knife to a gun fight".

Everybody forms their opinions based on personal experience. Some of us are lucky enough to live in a pristine, crime free environment. Try living in a suburb where you grew up and made your home, to see it turn into a slum, full of crack heads and scum. Or maybe, one that's been taken over by Muslim radicals, where your wives, sisters and daughters can't walk the streets alone. These exist in the US, in the UK and Australia, allowed to fester by our ignorance and tolerance. Now its too late to turn back the tide.

Racial tolerance, multi-culturist society? Well guess what mate, in 20 or 30 years time China will still be Chinese, Indonesia will still be Indonesian, black countries will still be black, and our western civilisation will be the poor cousins looking for handouts.

Why Do Orthodox Jews Spit at Christians

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt6-geYwguk

[Nick]

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/091202

[van the man]

I got to say these Jews are pretty damn scary. Muslim or Jewish oh dear what a choice for the Holy Land!!!

And to think the USA supports Israel! But then they Israel are prepared to wage war against Islam!

As long as they stay there and argue over desert wasteland the better for us!!