European take on the Syrian crisis?

[Maturin]

I did not congratulate them. I merely pointed out that they at least have read and understood The Prince by Niccolò Machiavelli, as has Putin.

OK fair enough. It think the world would become a much better place to live in if we outright rejected leaders that take their inspiration for foreign policy from 16th century philosophy. Indeed, no one ever says, "he's a Machiavellian operator," about a politician in order to praise them. Yet it seems that unscrupulousness, self-interest and the ability to lie well are the main traits to having a successful career in politics.

I'd add to that - In the UK the willingness to have oral sex with a dead pig (necro-bestial-philia?) also seems to do wonders for one's political aspirations! It's uncorroborated at this stage but the PM hasn't denied it and if you know anything about the upper classes in the UK then you know that they're more than capable of this kind of thing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/24/opinion/david-cameron-the-prime-minister-did-what-with-a-pigs-head.html

[JoJoGunne]

I'm not sure what game it is you're playing here but I'm not playing it. Unless the post with the facts and figures about the refugee crisis has been deleted, I'm not even going to check that has happened,

No game...at least, not on my part.

But thank you for admitting that you don't want to reference this mythical post of yours...you don't even want to see if it exists.

shrug...

I gave you a chance...you decline to take it...we are done here.

tschüss

[Maturin]

No game...at least, not on my part.

But thank you for admitting that you don't want to reference this mythical post of yours...you don't even want to see if it exists.

shrug...

I gave you a chance...you decline to take it...we are done here.

tschüss

In that case cheerio then, thanks for your efforts. 

EDIT: Ozi's self-help advice from only a few posts previous to this one was excellent and I do recommend you follow it.  Start again if you're unable to keep track. The thread is only 6 pages long - good luck with that.

[Maturin]

OK fair enough. It think the world would become a much better place to live in if we outright rejected leaders that take their inspiration for foreign policy from 16th century philosophy. Indeed, no one ever says, "he's a Machiavellian operator," about a politician in order to praise them. Yet it seems that unscrupulousness, self-interest and the ability to lie well are the main traits to having a successful career in politics.

I'd add to that - In the UK the willingness to have oral sex with a dead pig (necro-bestial-philia?) also seems to do wonders for one's political aspirations! It's uncorroborated at this stage but the PM hasn't denied it and if you know anything about the upper classes in the UK then you know that they're more than capable of this kind of thing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/24/opinion/david-cameron-the-prime-minister-did-what-with-a-pigs-head.html

That is of course well off the OP and I reference it for a bit of comic relief.

[JoJoGunne]

Switzerland, it appears, is not immune to the effects of the Muslim influx into the EU.

[BBsq69]

I did not congratulate them. I merely pointed out that they at least have read and understood The Prince by Niccolò Machiavelli, as has Putin.

So many politicians have. It is a brutal work explaining how you to lay traps for the opposition bend events to your favour and hang on to power. It is without doubt a work of genius and I know our PM and Chancellor know it inside out. Unfortunately the opposition only knows Marx inside out and have never read another book, unlike the days when the same party was ruled by Blair and his prince of darkness, Peter Mandelson, a modern day Machiavelli.

[Ozi]

I saw this "Saudi Arabia has bombed ISIS in Syria"

Not in any sense that could be called serious. Meanwhile they have bombed the shit of the Shiites in Yemen, and yet failed to do anything about ISIS affiliated organisations.

I think one month with their huge air force they flew less than 6 missions in Syria. It is for show only. Areas of the Yemen look like Grozny, Syria (largely of Asad's doing) or Europe after the WWII air raids.

Qatar funded ISIS up to 2014. Often the funding was routed via Turkey. I think is some US diplomat (or maybe British) who said recently that he was told the Saudi policy was annihilation of Iran, just like Iran's policy to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth. Saudi has been furious at the US and the allies recently because its failure to do their dirty work and remove Asad. Saudis problem with ISIS is that ISIS are out of control - they do not disagree with their intentions of setting up a caliphate. They prefer the Muslim Brotherhood but the important thing for them is to remove Asad, because they could not control him.

BTW the schools which foster the beliefs which lead to extremism Saudi have spent 10s of billions setting up all over the world fostering the Pakistan Taliban (they have recently stopped funding schools there), Boko Haram and Al Shabab. This is the Royal Family's, since they are the government, doing. They have the worst human rights on the planet and yet they get treated like members of the establishment.

In the last few years finally I hear British politicians and experts critical of Saudi's or Saudi citizens funding and fostering of terrorism but at the very top the Queen and our PM maintain very strong relations with them when they should be pariahs.

Trying to explain the complexity of what happens in the middle east in this forum would be an impossibility. Yes, wealthy individuals in Qatar probably did fund ISIS. Up to 2014, possibly, but as I stated, so did many other wealthy donors, some with and some without state approval or knowledge. But ISIS obtains funds from many other sources, many other countries, including the UK, the US and Australia, as well as what they acquire along the way.  As for some US diplomat (or maybe British) who said recently that he was told the Saudi policy was annihilation of Iran, just like Iran's policy to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth, you'll probably find that on 1000's of sites on the web.

And yes, Saudi Arabia did bomb Yemen, along with another 9 allied countries. But don't forget the numerous US airforce bases in the country that the coalition depend upon. Same as allowing the Turks to bomb ISIS and Kurds, maybe ten or twelve attacks against ISIS, maybe what, 200+ against the Kurds, an unofficial US ally.

I can't help but notice no one mentions the deals done between Assad and ISIS to take over Syrian cities to remove Assad's enemies. No one mentions the build up of Russian planes in Syria that are not designed for a defensive function anymore but aggression, which indicates a completely different strategy. Yes, Saudi Arabia does have a fairly significant air-force, recently updated by the US identical to those used by the US and supplied to Israel to create a level playing field. But actually not identical, they do not have the same tactical capabilities as the US planes, a budget version.

I notice no one mentions the diplomatic talks between most of the coalition countries, who despite all the critics, have taken note of 'lessons learnt' by previous mistakes, particularly the French. Removing Gaddafi and Hussein created short term solutions but without a plan to fill the voids, left long term problems. Why do you think no one has really moved against Assad? Because the only force capable of filling the void is ISIS and then we will never get rid of them.

One of the military think tank solutions was to let ISIS sort out Assad for us, but I think Russia intervention will lay that idea to rest. Then again, Russian success in the region, Afghanistan, is no better than ours. Imagine ISIS with all that Russian hardware. Today the middle east, tomorrow the world, 50 or so years earlier than expected.

Why won't the coalition properly support the Kurds? Because providing them that much power will result in an independent Kurdistan, which will upset Syria, Iran and Iraq but totally piss of Turkey, a NATO member.

And the US has to provide some compromise with Iran, otherwise the Russians certainly will. Imagine Russia with a stronghold in Syria and Iran. But nobody mentions the deals being negotiated between the US and Israel to compensate for the potential threats that the US has acknowledged do exist.

The list goes on and on and on.

There are two major conflicts going on the middle east, the Jews against the Arabs and the Shi'ites against the Sunnis. But unless you are aware of the other 100 or so major conflicts in the background, along with the factions and internal politics, you can't really understand the region and therefore will never come up with an adequate solution.

And all of this helps the cause of Islam, creating millions of muslim refugees to populate the rest of the world, particularly Europe at the moment and subsequently the corrupt governments that are allowing this to occur in many other countries. Wait till Turkey gets into the EU, over 70 million muslims with freedom of movement, hell on earth.

Millions of people still  in the middle east are not in the countries where they belong and probably never will, except maybe the Jews. There's only about 6 million of them in Israel, maybe another 8 million spread around the world. Leaving them in peace will solve half of the middle east problems. Then maybe the rest of the region can sort out their problems and stop the refugees.

[Maturin]

Switzerland, it appears, is not immune to the effects of the Muslim influx into the EU.

You have posted a video of 2 groups of Arabic looking people having a fight and you have spun it to show it as a warning about the Muslim influx into the EU. Do you or have you ever worked for Fox News? This unhelpful type of poorly researched and worded sensationalism brings nothing to the discussion on Syria, I'm sensing a definite pattern. You haven't taken Ozi's advice have you?

I think that you think that posting nonsense, asking ridiculous questions (such as me pointing you to a post less than 4 pages back) and just the mere fact that you keep on doing it, is going to make me give up showing you for a fool because I will get frustrated by it.

The UK, it appears, is not immune to the effects of its own citizens having a fight between themselves at the football.

[Maturin]

Trying to explain the complexity of what happens in the middle east in this forum would be an impossibility. Yes, wealthy individuals in Qatar probably did fund ISIS. Up to 2014, possibly, but as I stated, so did many other wealthy donors, some with and some without state approval or knowledge. But ISIS obtains funds from many other sources, many other countries, including the UK, the US and Australia, as well as what they acquire along the way.  As for some US diplomat (or maybe British) who said recently that he was told the Saudi policy was annihilation of Iran, just like Iran's policy to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth, you'll probably find that on 1000's of sites on the web.

And yes, Saudi Arabia did bomb Yemen, along with another 9 allied countries. But don't forget the numerous US airforce bases in the country that the coalition depend upon. Same as allowing the Turks to bomb ISIS and Kurds, maybe ten or twelve attacks against ISIS, maybe what, 200+ against the Kurds, an unofficial US ally.

I can't help but notice no one mentions the deals done between Assad and ISIS to take over Syrian cities to remove Assad's enemies. No one mentions the build up of Russian planes in Syria that are not designed for a defensive function anymore but aggression, which indicates a completely different strategy. Yes, Saudi Arabia does have a fairly significant air-force, recently updated by the US identical to those used by the US and supplied to Israel to create a level playing field. But actually not identical, they do not have the same tactical capabilities as the US planes, a budget version.

I notice no one mentions the diplomatic talks between most of the coalition countries, who despite all the critics, have taken note of 'lessons learnt' by previous mistakes, particularly the French. Removing Gaddafi and Hussein created short term solutions but without a plan to fill the voids, left long term problems. Why do you think no one has really moved against Assad? Because the only force capable of filling the void is ISIS and then we will never get rid of them.

One of the military think tank solutions was to let ISIS sort out Assad for us, but I think Russia intervention will lay that idea to rest. Then again, Russian success in the region, Afghanistan, is no better than ours. Imagine ISIS with all that Russian hardware. Today the middle east, tomorrow the world, 50 or so years earlier than expected.

Why won't the coalition properly support the Kurds? Because providing them that much power will result in an independent Kurdistan, which will upset Syria, Iran and Iraq but totally piss of Turkey, a NATO member.

And the US has to provide some compromise with Iran, otherwise the Russians certainly will. Imagine Russia with a stronghold in Syria and Iran. But nobody mentions the deals being negotiated between the US and Israel to compensate for the potential threats that the US has acknowledged do exist.

The list goes on and on and on.

There are two major conflicts going on the middle east, the Jews against the Arabs and the Shi'ites against the Sunnis. But unless you are aware of the other 100 or so major conflicts in the background, along with the factions and internal politics, you can't really understand the region and therefore will never come up with an adequate solution.

And all of this helps the cause of Islam, creating millions of muslim refugees to populate the rest of the world, particularly Europe at the moment and subsequently the corrupt governments that are allowing this to occur in many other countries. Wait till Turkey gets into the EU, over 70 million muslims with freedom of movement, hell on earth.

Millions of people still  in the middle east are not in the countries where they belong and probably never will, except maybe the Jews. There's only about 6 million of them in Israel, maybe another 8 million spread around the world. Leaving them in peace will solve half of the middle east problems. Then maybe the rest of the region can sort out their problems and stop the refugees.

No one is fool enough to think that Camcaps will come up with a solution here, right? This is the first reasonably sensible thing you've posted to this thread. No one has mentioned half of the things you've finally mentioned above, because right from the get go this thread became  about refuting the ridiculous notions that were advanced concerning refugees.

I commend the fact that you've dragged yourself out of the school yard.

[JoJoGunne]

You have posted a video of 2 groups of Arabic looking people having a fight and you have spun it to show it as a warning about the Muslim influx into the EU.

People having a fight???

Dude...this is people running each other over with cars!!

But tell me, would this have happened in Switzerland if those people had not immigrated to the EU?

Do you or have you ever worked for Fox News?

LOL!!

This kind of snide remark is a failed tactic...but, of course, it's pretty much all you have.

This unhelpful type of poorly researched and worded sensationalism brings nothing to the discussion on Syria, I'm sensing a definite pattern.

Oh...I'm sure these videos I've been posting are very unhelpful to your position that there is nothing wrong with the influx of immigrants into the EU.  Isn't that too bad for you?

But yeah...you should be sensing a pattern.  The pattern that indicates that the EU is experiencing disruption to their peaceful life that will only get worse.

You haven't taken Ozi's advice have you?

Ozi's advice?  Honestly, I haven't read any of his posts beyond a cursory skim, so you'll have to tell me what his advice has been.

I think that you think that posting nonsense, asking ridiculous questions (such as me pointing you to a post less than 4 pages back) and just the mere fact that you keep on doing it, is going to make me give up showing you for a fool because I will get frustrated by it.

I've already move on from your refusal to dispute my initial post in this thread...or to point out where you have disputed my post.  Why do you keep bringing it up if you aren't going to deal with it?

[Ozi]

Example: Posted  13/06/2014 12:16 BST

ISIS could very well have become the world's richest terror organisation after an injection of £250m into their coffers following a raid on Iraq's northern city of Mosul.

The militant jihadists currently advancing on the Iraqi capital of Baghdad are now rolling in riches, with an armed raid on Mosul's central bank reportedly resulting in a haul of 500 billion Iraqi dinars (£250m).

Atheel al-Nujaifi, Ninevah's provincial governor, told the International Business Times  that numerous banks across Mosul had been raided, with gold bullion taken as well as cash.

It elevates the group to a wealth on a par with the Taliban, once believed to have been in possession of around £200m, and Hezbollah, which is believed to have a budget of around £200m, with £50m-£100m coming directly from Iran.

Alternate version:

A raid by Iraqi militants on Mosul's central bank and other smaller banks as they overran Nineveh province earlier this month likely did not provide the group with hundreds of millions of dollars, a senior intelligence official told NBC News on Tuesday.

Two weeks ago, Mosul mayor and Nineveh governor Atheel al-Nujaifi had claimed that terrorists with the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) had stolen as much as $400 million from the Bank of Mosul and numerous provincial banks, as well as large quantities of gold bullion.

The Mosul heists did provide them with funds "to the tune of millions of dollars," said the official, but not "hundreds of millions."

ISIS gets some money from foreign donors, but it "pales to what they get from extortion, robbery, kidnapping," said the official.

"They require drivers to pay 'road taxes' in territories it controls," said the official, who estimated that the group takes in several million dollars a month.

                      Either way, I think we get the picture that state funding is not the real problem.

[Ozi]

Well it appears that at least 719 muslims won't be making the trip across to Europe and I understand they don't qualify for any virgins either. Some people just can't win a trick.