Thestarider Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 22 minutes ago, ed2 said: Yes, you do have a sort of security net, to catch those who fall outside your system, but that is pretty far from the idea of universal welfare. A security net is tax payer's charity to poor people. Universal welfare is a way to organize society that benefits both rich and poor. Read my earlier post: I understand it very well ed, but I don't and will never agree with it. It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. I am not aware of anywhere in this wise book to live by does it say rely on the government to take care you. "God helps those who help themselves" is correct. As an example, if you asked me to help you move a piece of furniture, but then just watched me as I moved the furniture for you, I was not actually helping you. I would be doing the work for you. Many people fall into the trap of inactivity. Many people ask their government for help, but then expect the government to do everything for them. They excuse this by pointing to the fact that government will provide according to their will and in their timing. However, this is not a reason for inactivity. As a specific example, if you are in need of a job, ask the government to help you find a job - but then be inactive in actually looking for a job. While it is in the governments power to do so, it is highly unlikely that the government will cause employers to come looking for you! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thestarider Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Thestarider said: I understand it very well ed, but I don't and will never agree with it. It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. I am not aware of anywhere in this wise book to live by does it say rely on the government to take care you. "God helps those who help themselves" is correct. As an example, if you asked me to help you move a piece of furniture, but then just watched me as I moved the furniture for you, I was not actually helping you. I would be doing the work for you. Many people fall into the trap of inactivity. Many people ask their government for help, but then expect the government to do everything for them. They excuse this by pointing to the fact that government will provide according to their will and in their timing. However, this is not a reason for inactivity. As a specific example, if you are in need of a job, ask the government to help you find a job - but then be inactive in actually looking for a job. While it is in the governments power to do so, it is highly unlikely that the government will cause employers to come looking for you! ed I believe that we control our own destiny by the decisions we make every single day. This is the reason we had the Boston Tea party !!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed2 Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 23 minutes ago, Thestarider said: Yes they do, just ask the 80 year old Italians that are dying today, and yesterday, and will tomorrow. Not to mention Russia, China, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, and North Korea just to name a few. Wake up ed. Those all I mentioned are national universal health care systems. I disagree. If there are limited capacity, like under a big pandemic in Italy now, you will always need to prioritize. The difference is that here you will get prioritized on the background of how serious your medical condition is, instead of your insurance plan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thestarider Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 1 minute ago, ed2 said: I disagree. If there are limited capacity, like under a big pandemic in Italy now, you will always need to prioritize. The difference is that here you will get prioritized on the background of how serious your medical condition is, instead of your insurance plan. I guess I was mistaken when I thought this was European Union ? there are plenty of beds in other countries just a hop skip and jump away that all support the European Union financially, but you let the elderly die because you prioritize your healthcare, just like Brain my employee from the UK, who's mother passed away waiting for and oncologist for over 8 months..… No Thanks ed, I am not interested you can have it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed2 Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Thestarider said: ed I believe that we control our own destiny by the decisions we make every single day. This is the reason we had the Boston Tea party !!!! Yes, I think it all boils down to a fundamentally different view between Europeans and Americans. The answer may lay in our history. We see the state (government) as something more communal, maybe because we have always lived under the same state, and by working together we changed it into something good. You tend to see it as something that limits you, the government is a always a sort of opressor of freedom, but then your history starts with your forefathers fleeing from the kingdoms of Europe, and then they chased the opressive state from your new country. We will probably never see eye to eye on this, but it is an interesting debate. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed2 Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 38 minutes ago, Thestarider said: I guess I was mistaken when I thought this was European Union ? there are plenty of beds in other countries just a hop skip and jump away that all support the European Union financially, but you let the elderly die because you prioritize your healthcare, just like Brain my employee from the UK, who's mother passed away waiting for and oncologist for over 8 months..… No Thanks ed, I am not interested you can have it. EU is not a union in the same sense as USA. You are one federal country, made up of 50 "states". In the same way Germany is a federal country, made up of 16 "bundesländer". EU is closer to a trade and passport union, between separate countries. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed2 Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 23 minutes ago, ed2 said: Yes, I think it all boils down to a fundamentally different view between Europeans and Americans. The answer may lay in our history. We see the state (government) as something more communal, maybe because we have always lived under the same state, and by working together we changed it into something good. You tend to see it as something that limits you, the government is a always a sort of opressor of freedom, but then your history starts with your forefathers fleeing from the kingdoms of Europe, and then they chased the opressive state from your new country. We will probably never see eye to eye on this, but it is an interesting debate. It is the opposite with Religion. Faith became something you embraced in your new country, because you were now free to practice it as you want. In Europe, the church has always been an opressor, often even worse than the king, so we have fought for centuries to lessen religion's influense on society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed2 Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 USA has in fact had somewhat of a universal welfare state in the past though. Under president Franklin D. Roosevelt, who reformed the economy to save it from collaps in the 1930s. Probably the most left wing president you ever had. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed2 Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 Universal health care. This map speak by itself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moos54 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, ed2 said: Universal health care. This map speak by itself. without color legend, this map saying nothing for me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed2 Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 12 minutes ago, moos54 said: without color legend, this map saying nothing for me Green: universal health care. Blue: some degree of free health care, but not universal. Red: no universal health care. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed2 Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 USA has no free health care, but as @Thestarider has pointed out several times here, if you absolutely cannot afford it, the state (in American terminology: government) will cover basic insurance. It is not the same as universal health care though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts