European take on the Syrian crisis?

[Ozi]

What the fuck? I have read so much crap in the last 30 minutes, it's literally given me a headache.

Saudi Arabia a threat, funding or supporting ISIS, or whatever? Totally confused.

Yes there are groups and individuals funding ISIS in Saudi Arabia, same as there are in dozens of other countries, including Australia. ISIS gets most of their funds from selling captured oil, extortion, raiding banks with millions in their safes when taking towns, drugs, you name it.

Saudi Arabia is under attack from ISIS.

Saudi Arabia has bombed ISIS in Syria.

Saudi Arabia is allowing anti ISIS, anti Assad rebels to be trained in country, the only other countries doing that are Turkey and Qatar.

Saudi Arabia has some military equipment, but know their limitations and know their only reliable ally is the US.

Saudi Arabia is pissed off at the Obama administration for not taking out Assad, especially after turning a blind eye to Assad's use of chemical weapons, that they got from Iraq.

The forerunner to ISIS was originally started by a Jordanian named Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, operating out of Jordan as a terrorist for about 10 years, moving to Afghanistan in 1999. Although meeting with bin Laden, chose not to join al-Qaeda.

He fled to Iraq in 2001 forced to move after the fall of the Taliban. It was claimed he was working with Saddam Hussein, but this was never proven and unlikely as he was establishing his own group. After the 2003 invasion he established the beginnings of the current movement, Jama’at al-Tahwid w’al Jihad. Unlike bin Laden, their target was Shi’ites. In 2005, he declared "all-out war" on Shi’ites  in Iraq. In 2005, he was taken out by US forces.

The vacuum left by Zarqawi’s death was picked up after the US withdrawals in 2011, by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, and the group morphed into al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) from a largely foreign to a largely Iraqi operation. Baghdadi himself, as his name suggests, is local.  Another rebranding occurred to the Islamic State of Iraq, or ISI. Like Zarqawi, the Shiites were still his main targets, but now he sent suicide bombers to attack police and military offices, checkpoints, and recruiting stations and included civilian targets. ISI’s recruited former Sons of Iraq, many of whom had previously been commanders and soldiers in Saddam’s military, turning Baghdadi’s fighters into the semblance of an army with thousands of armed men now at his disposal, Baghdadi opened a second front against the Shiites in Syria, where there was a largely secular uprising against President Bashar al-Assad.

In 2013 the group was now renamed the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS), reflecting his greater ambitions and also Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant , covering a much larger section of the middle east for his caliphate.

ISIS is Iraqi born and bred.

[JoJoGunne]

Sure thing, I'll take what you said on board, thanks for the advice:

I think you simply don't want different people messing up the status quo. I think that the above quote shows that you think you're better than them.

That's better.  It would be even better if you explained why you think that way instead of just stating your opinion.

I know and have proved (whether you choose to read that proof or not) that your protestations and opinions are groundless

Actually, I don't think you have, though if you think you have please provide me with the post number in which you've presented your proof.

[Maturin]

Pfffff

Show me where I said that the Saudis were responsible, directly, for ISIS? You do know what the catalyst for the 2003 Iraqi invasion was right and what happened after, right?

Two sentences and your mess of text is demolished.

Jojogunne, you know exactly which post I'm referencing. Have you read any of it yet? If not, as I said, this seems pretty done. 

[JoJoGunne]

Jojogunne, you know exactly which post I'm referencing. Have you read any of it yet? If not, as I said, this seems pretty done.

Believe me, if I knew I wouldn't ask.

If you can't...or won't...take the simple action of directing me to the post you are referencing, then I'll have to agree..."this seems pretty done".

[Maturin]

Believe me, if I knew I wouldn't ask.

If you can't...or won't...take the simple action of directing me to the post you are referencing, then I'll have to agree..."this seems pretty done".

I'm not sure what game it is you're playing here but I'm not playing it. Unless the post with the facts and figures about the refugee crisis has been deleted, I'm not even going to check that has happened, then yep, this has definitely taken a turn for the juvenile.  Essentially what I think is being demonstrated here is the teenager's tactic of lastworduppery. Knock yourselves out with that fellas, you'll win the last words, congrats!  :nana:. I came here for intelligent debate of an intelligent open question. I haven't found that at all.

So I'll refer you back to this post, which was very quick to locate, there has been nothing worthy of commenting on from you both for a while so I'll stop.  Follow its advice, given in good faith, choose those killer last words and have a good day:

I find it remarkable that the slightest tardiness in my phrasing (missing think) immediately gets me called a liar, the guy that's only been referencing facts - yet, the guy who said whatever it was; Muslims ate my local butcher and stole my niece's Christmas, the Muslims are pissing on my ego as I type this etc etc*, no one bats an eyelid to that! I even generously agreed to give him the benefit of the doubt! LOL*

We can leave this here as it's going nowhere. I never thought for a moment that any of you would take the time to see the argument from the other side or to read any of the evidence I posted.  Again, I tell you it would do you all a favour to at least consider what you're opponents are talking about, read the evidence, instead of just writing them off under whatever the first lazy pejorative is that springs to mind - as you have seen a person with a grasp of both sides of the argument and evidence on his side is pretty unassailable.

It also wouldn't hurt you to step outside the closed ideology echo-chamber of Camcaps and do what I've just done, but for your "team". Find some site full of those monstrous socialists and try to argue your case when everyone is against you - I guarantee that it will make you better people!!!! :D

Thank you Comrades*

*I'll leave out the(") that we've agreed will signify irony/satire

[Foamy T. Squirrel]

Amazing -- we all seem to agree that the Saudis are shrewd businessmen who play both sides of the coin for political and economic reasons.

This is perfectly understandable, for the simple reason that the Royal House of Saud would have been overthrown long ago without this skill.

One thing I'm surprised my European friends have not mentioned is that now that the US has been showered with derision and guilt, and has a leftest President, it now treats its allies like shit and state-capitalist dictatorships like Cuba, Iran, and Russia with pussy-whipped appeasement.

[BBsq69]

I saw this "Saudi Arabia has bombed ISIS in Syria"

Not in any sense that could be called serious. Meanwhile they have bombed the shit of the Shiites in Yemen, and yet failed to do anything about ISIS affiliated organisations.

I think one month with their huge air force they flew less than 6 missions in Syria. It is for show only. Areas of the Yemen look like Grozny, Syria (largely of Asad's doing) or Europe after the WWII air raids.

Qatar funded ISIS up to 2014. Often the funding was routed via Turkey. I think is some US diplomat (or maybe British) who said recently that he was told the Saudi policy was annihilation of Iran, just like Iran's policy to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth. Saudi has been furious at the US and the allies recently because its failure to do their dirty work and remove Asad. Saudis problem with ISIS is that ISIS are out of control - they do not disagree with their intentions of setting up a caliphate. They prefer the Muslim Brotherhood but the important thing for them is to remove Asad, because they could not control him.

BTW the schools which foster the beliefs which lead to extremism Saudi have spent 10s of billions setting up all over the world fostering the Pakistan Taliban (they have recently stopped funding schools there), Boko Haram and Al Shabab. This is the Royal Family's, since they are the government, doing. They have the worst human rights on the planet and yet they get treated like members of the establishment.

In the last few years finally I hear British politicians and experts critical of Saudi's or Saudi citizens funding and fostering of terrorism but at the very top the Queen and our PM maintain very strong relations with them when they should be pariahs.

[Maturin]

Spot on again BBsq69.  This is the first, for CC, accurate exposition of how the Saudi's operate, yet their methods have been so obscured/supported by our governments and media that one person on here actually felt it is correct to defend the refugee policy of one of the most anti-human rights nations on the planet and another merely called them shrewd businessmen, who it would appear thinks they should be congratulated for using their wealth and influence to destroy effective opposition.

[Ozi]

Pfffff

Show me where I said that the Saudis were responsible, directly, for ISIS? You do know what the catalyst for the 2003 Iraqi invasion was right and what happened after, right?

Two sentences and your mess of text is demolished.

Jojogunne, you know exactly which post I'm referencing. Have you read any of it yet? If not, as I said, this seems pretty done.

There's that arrogance again, you think this is only about you. You are not the only person posting on this thread though are without doubt the only fuckwit (fuckwit - A person who is not only lacking in clue but is apparently unable or unwilling to acquire clue even when handed it on a plate in generous portions.)

My response about Saudi Arabia had nothing to do with anything you wrote. It may have been relevant but I wouldn't know because I've given up reading your bullshit. Maybe I'll start again to see how far you have strayed from actual facts. You now have the delusion that you know something about the middle east conflict as well as being an expert on Europe.

We had a guy like you on here once before, can't remember what he called himself. He denied the muslim problem in Europe as well. Said he was off to Germany for a few days and would report back the real facts about the country. For some strange reason we never heard from him again.

And what has the Iraqi invasion of 2003 got to do with what I wrote anyway?

So your so called two sentences are actually irrelevant, like everything else you post. If you are going to respond at least reference the actual content.

[Maturin]

Ah, so we've arrived at the "fuckwit" put down already? It's only been, what, 8 pages? How many times do you have to be told that your posts are becoming increasingly desperate and irrelevant. Here's the first time in this thread, I'll keep count for you if you like: Your posts are becoming increasingly desperate and irrelevant - #1

If you've given up reading my bullshit (UN reports, apolitical statistics, real world case studies) then why are you still addressing me directly? Do you see how irrelevant you have let yourself become?

I've no need to personally insult you, I've discovered that refuting your fantasy statements with facts and rationalism winds you up more than schoolyard names (with redundant definitions), it's working wonders.

You're right it's not about me, the OP is about the situation in Syria.  You haven't posted anything that is useful, let alone verifiably true about the situation.  That you do not know what the link is between Saudi Arabia and the 2003 invasion of Iraq (leading to the rise of ISIS later on), further demonstrates that  you're completely unqualified to comment on this thread. At this very moment I think that you are literally thinking, "hang on, he's still saying that the Saudis created ISIS, time to call him a "fuckwit" and put this debate to bed."

I've given you far too much benefit of the doubt Ozi. Simply for the fact that you chose to participate in this thread, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you knew what you were talking about and had some relevant information that you could argue constructively. That hasn't been evident at all. I think you're embarrassing yourself and I also think that being seen as a credible commentator on global affairs is very important to you. I think I feel a little bit sorry for you because of this but not that much due to your sad attempts at insulting me - and also I didn't make you act like a twat, that's always a personal choice.

My response about Saudi Arabia had nothing to do with anything you wrote. It may have been relevant but I wouldn't know because I've given up reading your bullshit. Maybe I'll start again to see how far you have strayed from actual facts. You now have the delusion that you know something about the middle east conflict as well as being an expert on Europe.

A sound plan - you shouldn't have let yourself get  to this stage anyway. Go back and start again, read the facts, that's all I've asked of you, why has that pissed you off so much?!

EDIT: Now I've replied, I can see it's only 6 pages that it took for you to shed yourself of any credibility.

[Maturin]

Godwin's "Law" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law#cite_note-Godwin94-2

Maturin's "Law" - As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a Ozi throwing his toys out of the pram and calling people fuckwits approaches 1.

[Foamy T. Squirrel]

Spot on again BBsq69.  This is the first, for CC, accurate exposition of how the Saudi's operate, yet their methods have been so obscured/supported by our governments and media that one person on here actually felt it is correct to defend the refugee policy of one of the most anti-human rights nations on the planet and another merely called them shrewd businessmen, who it would appear thinks they should be congratulated for using their wealth and influence to destroy effective opposition.

I did not congratulate them. I merely pointed out that they at least have read and understood The Prince by Niccolò Machiavelli, as has Putin.