A timeout for Paul (and Leora)?

[corboblanc]

il y a 14 minutes, BBsq69 a dit :

Quand les gens aiment, ils vont mettre en place avec beaucoup de merde, ils ne devraient pas. Tout sur les hommes et les femmes monde font mettre en place avec elle, qui n'a pas, pendant une seconde, faire droit. Beaucoup de relations ont un élément de commande et souvent la victime est la dernière personne à voir. Si l'homme lève la main à une femme ou vice versa, il est pas juste, mais peut-être qu'ils fissurée et le couple en discuter. Si cela se reproduit alors ce que vous avez est un gros problème.

si les disputes sont permanentes, il est évident que le couple à un problème. en attendant, leora est maintenant pleine de joie et de bonne humeur, pas vraiment traumatisée!!! certainement le syndrome de Stockholm, quand la victime tombe amoureuse de son bourreau!!! non, je rigole....

if disputes are permanent, it is clear that the couple with a problem. meanwhile leora is now full of joy and good humor, not really traumatized !!! certainly Stockholm syndrome, where the victim falls in love with her torturer !!! No, just kidding ....

[BBsq69]

2 minutes ago, corboblanc said:

si les disputes sont permanentes, il est évident que le couple à un problème. en attendant, leora est maintenant pleine de joie et de bonne humeur, pas vraiment traumatisée!!! certainement le syndrome de Stockholm, quand la victime tombe amoureuse de son bourreau!!! non, je rigole....

if disputes are permanent, it is clear that the couple with a problem. meanwhile leora is now full of joy and good humor, not really traumatized !!! certainly Stockholm syndrome, where the victim falls in love with her torturer !!! No, just kidding ....

Leora loves Paul, Leora loves RLC. She will put up with a lot. Many women simply go into denial - after the August incident she barely spoke to him for about a month. Also she does not live where I live - not all places have reached the same stage of social developement. 50 years ago in the UK Paul's behaviour would have been seen as something not be overly concerned about, but times have changed. You live in France, a country at least as advanced as the UK, Germany, Holland or Scandinavia, it is surely the same there.

[Guest cobalt75]

2 hours ago, BBsq69 said:

I am going to be very clear here. Taking somebody's phone and looking through it against their wishes, against their clear protests, is bullying. Paul eased her off and did not intend to hurt her but nevertheless his awful behaviour is why she got hurt.

That is an incident, that is scandal. If you do not know why that is, I cannot help you. It is emotional abuse plain and simple.

There is no conspiracy. Use your eyes. And are you forgetting the physical violence that has already happened in this relationship on more than one occasion and if RLC were any sort of a decent organisation they would have least temporarily suspended the cameras on those occasion for fear of damaging their reputation - well that's what would have happened in the western world.

I suggest all of you who do not seem have not joined the 21st century educate yourselves, but then many men around the world think its OK to treat women like this.

It is not acceptable where I come from, it should not be where you are from.

I agree 100%. Paul is "un vrai con" (in french in the text). Nobody is allowed to look in friend or wife or husband phone, or in their computer. What a world if you think so corbeau and daemon!!!! no need to hit to be a con. Look at the video, the first thing he does after Leora fell is to recover the phone who is behind her!!!!!!!!!!This guy is a violent guy yes and a veritable con!!!  "small violence" is acceptable....yes only for stupid men

 

[Barry Elephant]

1 hour ago, BBsq69 said:

So she does in front with you, with you pleading for her not to do it do you and she fights you off? Really, and that's healthy? Do you read her diary? Like I said, this behaviour is considered bullying in the UK. It's what they use in all the bullying adverts. Obviously people do look surreptitiously if they suspect something but what this says to the other person is "I have control. I do no trust you. If you have problem, go to fuck." You maybe comfortable with it, except you aren't - "I don't like it" - I wouldn't be. 

Not sure I get what you are saying. I don't understand "obviously people do look surreptitiously". Is that bullying or not, now?

I believe that there is an element of saying "I have control" in the phone-reading that I experience. I think that's quite clear. No I don't read her diary. There isn't one and I wouldn't if there was. Nor do I read her phone or emails. That's just how it is. I am not unhappy.

I am in the UK, and I believe I can perceive what is and isn't considered bullying. I am also not sure that things are as clear-cut as you suggest.  

I think it's just a matter of keeping things in proportion, and realising that if someone wants to read my spam and business witterings, then so what? Unless of course there is infidelity, which would be exposed by it, when that all becomes more difficult, and that's another kind of control game, and a different kind of bullying.

Sometimes in relationships people posture at infidelity which makes their partner insecure. I call that unfair, you may say bullying,, and it often leads to behaviour like phone-reading, and worse.

People aren't always nice to one-another. People don't always act like we think they should. People exercise control over each other and their relationship-scenario in various ways. There are no absolutes of right and wrong when that happens, particularly in a relationship. Call it bullying, call it controlling, we all do it at some stage of a relationship. There is also much lack of trust at the heart of many relationships.

There is a lot to talk about in the leora-paul relationship, but most of it is in shades of grey.

 

[MGB]

A few observations I would like to make on this subject

Paul’s phone, the yellow one, appears to be the better model with a better camera and is the one used to take photos and upload them to social media. (Although now they have bought a proper camera) I have noted on more than one occasion Leora using this phone to do exactly that, even leaving the flat with the yellow phone leaving Paul with her phone. They have no reason to hide any messages from each other.

He was playfully teasing her, even on the animated gif you can see him smiling until she started to fall. He had his arm under her and managed to break her fall otherwise it would have been a lot worse.

Just afterwards in the bedroom they are both looking at something on her phone and laughing (maybe the very message/youtube clip which she wanted to see) which points to me that both of them thought nothing of the incident so why is this forum.

[showtime4me]

22 hours ago, daemon said:

RLC unlike haters Paul adequately assess the situation. There was not even a scandal, he did not push her. And they saw it. It's funny to call it a push or incident.

You made your point (I guess) over, and over, and over....anything else you want to add?

You are exactly the kind of member I was referring to when I said there are those out there who like to just "rain on your parade" and take all the fun out of this!

[BBsq69]

3 hours ago, MGB said:

He was playfully teasing her, even on the animated gif you can see him smiling until she started to fall. He had his arm under her and managed to break her fall otherwise it would have been a lot worse.

 

Playful teasing. I've heard it all. I did not see the exact moment of the fall (I saw the fall, I just missed her attempted grab) but I saw what happened before and her pleading was not playful. it's not the first time and normally finishes with a blazing row. I know what I saw and I am pretty good at facial expressions and body language which most males are not if the truth be told. If you think this is playful teasing, you are probably one of those people who argued with me that I had misinterpreted when he stormed across the room grabbed her by the throat, slammed into the fridge and brushed it off as a bit of fun. She obviously faked the terror in eyes and the crying and the several weeks after when she had neither sex with him nor even bated ... because she was in such a good mood. This time of course she suffered a big shock as well, but their general relationship at this time is pretty good and maybe she's become desensitised after the last time he grabbed he throat possibly deciding he is what he is. She cried then and then let rip with her fury. I'm pretty certain what that row was about, which was not jealousy on that occasion.

 

[BBsq69]

7 hours ago, Barry Elephant said:

Not sure I get what you are saying. I don't understand "obviously people do look surreptitiously". Is that bullying or not, now?

I believe that there is an element of saying "I have control" in the phone-reading that I experience. I think that's quite clear. No I don't read her diary. There isn't one and I wouldn't if there was. Nor do I read her phone or emails. That's just how it is. I am not unhappy.

I am in the UK, and I believe I can perceive what is and isn't considered bullying. I am also not sure that things are as clear-cut as you suggest.  

I think it's just a matter of keeping things in proportion, and realising that if someone wants to read my spam and business witterings, then so what? Unless of course there is infidelity, which would be exposed by it, when that all becomes more difficult, and that's another kind of control game, and a different kind of bullying.

Sometimes in relationships people posture at infidelity which makes their partner insecure. I call that unfair, you may say bullying,, and it often leads to behaviour like phone-reading, and worse.

People aren't always nice to one-another. People don't always act like we think they should. People exercise control over each other and their relationship-scenario in various ways. There are no absolutes of right and wrong when that happens, particularly in a relationship. Call it bullying, call it controlling, we all do it at some stage of a relationship. There is also much lack of trust at the heart of many relationships.

There is a lot to talk about in the leora-paul relationship, but most of it is in shades of grey.

 

I thought you might be from the UK. in which case you cannot have missed the adverts, not that you should really need to see them. Looking surreptitiously might appear more dishonest but indicative that you do not trust a person but to do it in front of their face means you are saying to them "I DO NOT TRUST YOU". with the purpose of the very least upsetting that person. Sneaking in somebody's room and reading their diary is self-evidently wrong but who would be so crass as to take the diary and read it out in front of the author. Maybe you don't see the difference.

Paul does play control games - I'm not saying she doesn't play her own games although far less frequently than she did and of course she controls her money - even at one stage giving her a walkie-talkie which she was clearly annoyed by and this was far from the first time he has shown his jealously and looked through her phone. If someone lends you their phone, would you look through their messages - bit of a betrayal of trust if you do.

Obviously we have all been suspicious and jealous in relationships. It is natural, but lines should be drawn. For instance how many relationships would survive surveillance by a private detective. "I had you investigated and I am glad to say found nothing ... what's the matter, babe?"

There are as you say shades of grey, but Paul has form. Mind you if my girlfriend suggested we go on RLC ... actually probably I wouldn't mind (and it would mean my GF was probably quite hot) but I suspect I'd be in a very small minority ... so we have Paul to thank for something and it must be stressful sometimes.

[Barry Elephant]

2 hours ago, BBsq69 said:

I thought you might be from the UK. in which case you cannot have missed the adverts, not that you should really need to see them. Looking surreptitiously might appear more dishonest but indicative that you do not trust a person but to do it in front of their face means you are saying to them "I DO NOT TRUST YOU". with the purpose of the very least upsetting that person. Sneaking in somebody's room and reading their diary is self-evidently wrong but who would be so crass as to take the diary and read it out in front of the author. Maybe you don't see the difference.

Paul does play control games - I'm not saying she doesn't play her own games although far less frequently than she did and of course she controls her money - even at one stage giving her a walkie-talkie which she was clearly annoyed by and this was far from the first time he has shown his jealously and looked through her phone. If someone lends you their phone, would you look through their messages - bit of a betrayal of trust if you do.

Obviously we have all been suspicious and jealous in relationships. It is natural, but lines should be drawn. For instance how many relationships would survive surveillance by a private detective. "I had you investigated and I am glad to say found nothing ... what's the matter, babe?"

There are as you say shades of grey, but Paul has form. Mind you if my girlfriend suggested we go on RLC ... actually probably I wouldn't mind (and it would mean my GF was probably quite hot) but I suspect I'd be in a very small minority ... so we have Paul to thank for something and it must be stressful sometimes.

I think that I may have missed the advertising, I tend to avoid commercial environments, but don't t think that impairs my understanding.

I don't think the bullying issue depends on the presence or otherwise of "crassness." If someone is saying I do not trust you, then it doesn't matter how it is said, and a lack of trust doesn't equate with bullying either. Some distrust can be found in many healthy relationships.

And I didn't mention sneak reading a diary. You did, a couple of times. That is not what I was talking about

 

[jimbo4]

1 hour ago, Barry Elephant said:

I think that I may have missed the advertising, I tend to avoid commercial environments, but don't t think that impairs my understanding.

I don't think the bullying issue depends on the presence or otherwise of "crassness." If someone is saying I do not trust you, then it doesn't matter how it is said, and a lack of trust doesn't equate with bullying either. Some distrust can be found in many healthy relationships.

And I didn't mention sneak reading a diary. You did, a couple of times. That is not what I was talking about

 

Just got to say this BB and Barry, I am thoroughly enjoying your literal fencing on this matter.......nice to see two intelligent people putting their points of view over in such a civilised manner. Toodles!

[BBsq69]

4 hours ago, Barry Elephant said:

I think that I may have missed the advertising, I tend to avoid commercial environments, but don't t think that impairs my understanding.

I don't think the bullying issue depends on the presence or otherwise of "crassness." If someone is saying I do not trust you, then it doesn't matter how it is said, and a lack of trust doesn't equate with bullying either. Some distrust can be found in many healthy relationships.

And I didn't mention sneak reading a diary. You did, a couple of times. That is not what I was talking about

 

First of all I mentioned the diary because phones are often regarded as being on a similar personal level, because people understand them better. Mobiles can contain not only a record of calls, a record of personal pictures, a history of private text message. If you have a diary you may want to show someone ane entry or a picture you have put in it but you do not expect anyone to flip through the pages without permission. People understand that about diaries, but often people do not get the nature of mobile phones. Paul had phone for several minutes yesterday and held her off while she repeatedly asked him to give it her back and was becoming increasingly more desperate - hence the lunge that led to her accident.

Where we differ is that the point of bullying is that you are doing something somebody does not like and when they ask you to stop, you just keep doing it because you are in a position of power. So trust is not really the issue here it is the way Paul has gone about it on this occasion.If he merely says that he does not trust her, it is not nice for her to hear but she can deal with it unless he is persistent and starts name calling e.g. starting the day of with "Good morning, whore."without intending it as a joke. Now you most have noticed several occasions on which she has got dressed to go out particularly when she was attending her course, he has told her to change. Of course she may take his advice seriously but it does depend on how he gives it and for that I would probably need to have an exact translation as my Russian, despite my 'O' level, is limited. It is not really important to my argument what exactly happens, but again this is not really serious unless it is thing taht is done often. There is a difference between "Don't you think that's a bit slutty?" and "I've told you before not to dress like a slut." although not if he keeps saying the former. 

Anyway I'm drifting from the point. The difference between him taking her phone and looking through it unwitnessed is that she cannot feel uncomfortable about it if she does not about it so she cannot be being bullied. Even if he mentions it afterwards because he's likely to say that "I happened to see ... on your phone." She might not believe it was an accident but might not want to call him on it. That he takes her phone as he did on this occasion and starts looking through it with her protesting and pleading with him constantly to stop - every other word out her mouth during this time was "Please" - and her being clearly uncomfortable (if I said distressed maybe that is me going a step too far) with him blocking her physically by holding her hand back for several minutes until she was forced to step her attempts at retrieval, is very obvious bullying. It is designed to assert his power over her and to show that if it comes to her feelings of vulnerability and his feelings of suspicion and jealousy, there is only one winner. It's like him opening her private letters, which may contain criticisms of him by a friend, and him reading them out to her demanding to know what the writer means. If he looks through them when she is not there, it is bad behaviour, but does not impact on her unless she knows and even then she has time to compose her thoughts unless he is suddenly open about it.
 

BTW She has just come back in a foul mood and there have no gone out to the balcony to continue the discussion/row. After a few minutes he managed to calm her down. Whether she was angry with him or something that happened while she was out is difficult to tell but certainly at the start she alternated between blanking him and staring at him so maybe he said the wrong thing at some point which as a male, i know is easily done. Very tame compared to some of the rants she has been on before which he does normally deal with pretty well.

 

[Barry Elephant]

They are a couple having a fight. Each will deploy all of the weapons they have at their disposal, and it's fascinating.

If you want to call some of that bullying and some of it not, then rock on mate. I see shades where you seem to be looking for lines. We may have to agree to differ on that.