Discussion: 2019 Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV) #2

[Ridgerunner]

8 hours ago, firewall said:

 the lockdown is extended to the 11 may in France, four more weeks to stay home

and until further notice the europeen borders will stay closed

With no one working and businesses closed where does money come from to run the country? 

[letsdothis]

1 hour ago, Ridgerunner said:

Previous to coronavirus, social justice was the primary reason given for the mass release of prisoners by U.S. cities and states. Social justice is a liberal progressive promoted political issue.  Liberal progressives reside in the Democratic Party.

That may all be true. I didn't find that. Stone asked a question and the
Barr article was what I found to answer it. And I wasn't being biased. I
found several articles that all said the same thing, so I just posted one.
I saw nothing about social justice, liberal progressiveness or the
Democratic Party. It was all about Barr.

But, it's like I said before, people are at fault, everyone is to blame. If
you're a Republican it doesn't earn you an exemption from blame, but
they seem very eager to blame anything and anyone else. I think one
party is just as much at fault as the other. The Republicans certainly
get the blame for backing the person claiming to be the leader of this
country.

And, I'm not being biased there, either. It wouldn't matter if he was
Democrat, Republican, Independent, Green or any other party, he still
would be unfit for the job he stole.

When I read that he wanted to lift the quarantine two weeks after it
was put in place, in other words, sacrifice the most at-risk group, the
elderly, to this virus, to save the economy, I knew then and there, if I
ever had any doubt, that he is a vile, evil, despicable attempt at being
a human being. Saying something like that, even just coming up with
the idea, is career suicide for a politician, yet he doesn't care about
anyone except himself.

And, as if that wasn't inappropriate enough, the Republican Lt.
Governor of Texas immediately hopped right up on his bandwagon
and said, I think a lot of Grandparents would die to save the economy.
News flash: Death is permanent, the economy will live again.

I have an idea for a new baseball cap. Instead of MAGA, it should
say MANEA, Make America Not Embarrassing Again. (I can't take
credit for that. I saw it on a bumper sticker.)

You know, for someone who's not a Republican, you sure defend
them a LOT.

2 hours ago, Ridgerunner said:

Maybe you need to suck it up and be an adult.

That was original.

[zone51]

6 hours ago, Ridgerunner said:

With no one working and businesses closed where does money come from to run the country? 

the borrowings and our kids will pay the bill 😏 and the taxes will probably up after this crisis, we will all pay the bill in the next years and our future kids also

the debt is going to explode in many countries

[moos54]

7 hours ago, Ridgerunner said:

With no one working and businesses closed where does money come from to run the country? 

Dead people no longer pay anything so it is probably better to damage the economy than to lose a population that will be profitable later

Unfortunately this question of profitability can only really arise once the virus is gone

Not everyone is at a standstill, some companies have never stopped but have adapted to this situation

[Ridgerunner]

7 hours ago, letsdothis said:

That may all be true. I didn't find that. Stone asked a question and the
Barr article was what I found to answer it. And I wasn't being biased. I
found several articles that all said the same thing, so I just posted one.
I saw nothing about social justice, liberal progressiveness or the
Democratic Party. It was all about Barr.

But, it's like I said before, people are at fault, everyone is to blame. If
you're a Republican it doesn't earn you an exemption from blame, but
they seem very eager to blame anything and anyone else. I think one
party is just as much at fault as the other. The Republicans certainly
get the blame for backing the person claiming to be the leader of this
country.

And, I'm not being biased there, either. It wouldn't matter if he was
Democrat, Republican, Independent, Green or any other party, he still
would be unfit for the job he stole.

When I read that he wanted to lift the quarantine two weeks after it
was put in place, in other words, sacrifice the most at-risk group, the
elderly, to this virus, to save the economy, I knew then and there, if I
ever had any doubt, that he is a vile, evil, despicable attempt at being
a human being. Saying something like that, even just coming up with
the idea, is career suicide for a politician, yet he doesn't care about
anyone except himself.

And, as if that wasn't inappropriate enough, the Republican Lt.
Governor of Texas immediately hopped right up on his bandwagon
and said, I think a lot of Grandparents would die to save the economy.
News flash: Death is permanent, the economy will live again.

I have an idea for a new baseball cap. Instead of MAGA, it should
say MANEA, Make America Not Embarrassing Again. (I can't take
credit for that. I saw it on a bumper sticker.)

You know, for someone who's not a Republican, you sure defend
them a LOT.

That was original.

You are intellectually dishonest. You found the article about Barr because you wanted to discredit the Trump administration. You know all about the Lt. Gov. of Texas, but you don't know who William Barr is? I don't believe you.  The "job he stole"? You are stupid. Trump won an election. I  defend a lot of Republicans because at this point and time in history what they want to do for my country makes a hell of a lot more sense than what Democrats want to do.  I don't believe in liberal progressive socialist European Marxist policies, that's why I now have no use for the Democratic Party.   Trump "claiming to be the leader of this country"?   I'm sorry but Trump is President of the United States, so he IS the leader of this country.  

[Ridgerunner]

4 hours ago, firewall said:

the borrowings and our kids will pay the bill 😏 and the taxes will probably up after this crisis, we will all pay the bill in the next years and our future kids also

the debt is going to explode in many countries

Or you could just print the money and end up like Venezuela. 

[Ridgerunner]

3 hours ago, moos54 said:

Dead people no longer pay anything so it is probably better to damage the economy than to lose a population that will be profitable later

Unfortunately this question of profitability can only really arise once the virus is gone

Not everyone is at a standstill, some companies have never stopped but have adapted to this situation

But how many people will a damaged economy kill in the future?  Why do we consider the Great Depression to be so bad? Could it be because of the lives that were destroyed? It is not a question of profitability, it's a question of people being able to financially support themselves. It does not need to be either/or. There should be a way to open the economy without costing lives. Worldwide 650,000 people die from the flu every year?  Are we now going to close the economy every flu season to prevent anyone from getting the flu?

[zone51]

24 minutes ago, Ridgerunner said:

But how many people will a damaged economy kill in the future?  Why do we consider the Great Depression to be so bad? Could it be because of the lives that were destroyed? It is not a question of profitability, it's a question of people being able to financially support themselves. It does not need to be either/or. There should be a way to open the economy without costing lives. Worldwide 650,000 people die from the flu every year?  Are we now going to close the economy every flu season to prevent anyone from getting the flu?

we have no vaccine or treatment with this virus this is the problem and the difference with the flu, the only solution we have for the moment is the lockdown, without the lockdown we would have much more deaths currently

this virus is very contagious too

[moos54]

13 minutes ago, Ridgerunner said:

But how many people will a damaged economy kill in the future?  Why do we consider the Great Depression to be so bad? Could it be because of the lives that were destroyed? It is not a question of profitability, it's a question of people being able to financially support themselves. It does not need to be either/or. There should be a way to open the economy without costing lives. Worldwide 650,000 people die from the flu every year?  Are we now going to close the economy every flu season to prevent anyone from getting the flu?

From what I read from the WHO, covid-19 would be ten times more deadly than a simple flu, so I let you do the calculations on the potential mortality without confinement of the population as we know it right now
Yes, there will surely be negative effects once this crisis is over, but for the moment the urgency is the protection of the population
After the difference is that in France we have more job security and better compensation even if we lose money

The problem with confinement is that there is no collective immunity and without that you must be able to immunize the population with a vaccine without having to want to have a second wave of mortality

it's true that the repercussions are going to be hard for the world after, In the end, there is no miracle solution and you have to make choices 

[moos54]

Here I found an article compared to what I said about a treatment without chloroquine and which does just as well even if it is not really tested in the laboratories

Coronavirus: three general practitioners believe they have found a possible cure

Two doctors from the Great East and one from the North have implemented a treatment protocol based on azithromycin. With, they say, results on their patients affected by Covid-19.

Three general practitioners who exchanged on a Facebook group have they found a Covid-19 parade usable on a very large scale? Denis Gastaldi, Jean-Jacques Erbstein and Olivia Vansteenberghe, respectively doctors in Morhange, Créhange (Moselle) and Wormhout (North) prefer to remain very cautious, while expressing their great hopes. Dr. Gastaldi assures the Parisian-Today in France that the trio has tested a treatment on several hundred patients in a formidably effective manner. His colleague Dr. Erbstein spoke on Saturday in the East of the Republic, advancing less extensive figures .

Their combination of drugs is based on the research of Professor Raoult , their knowledge of other treatments and a good dose of pragmatism. "It's very empirical," explains Dr. Gastaldi. The three of us discussed the possible treatments. As we could not use hydroxychloroquine in the protocol of Pr Didier Raoult (Editor's note: general practitioners are not authorized to prescribe this molecule), we wondered if azithromycin could not be the basis of treatment. Especially since we realize that hydroxychloroquine is not that miraculous. Azithromycin has the advantage of being an antibiotic, but also of having an action on viruses and an anti-inflammatory activity on the pulmonary parenchyma (Editor's note: the functional tissue of the lungs) . "

And to continue: “We thought about what could increase the effect of this drug. Zinc is very effective for this. Two Effizinc capsules are added to the protocol. Still empirically, Singulair, used in people with asthma, has been added for its role as an anti-inflammatory on interstitial lung tissue. In severe forms, heparin is added in low doses to prevent thrombosis, phlebitis and pulmonary embolism, which are common with coronavirus. One of the sine qua non conditions is to start this treatment at the first symptoms, not to wait until being in intensive care. "

Encouraging results

If the cocktail born from conversations on the Facebook group “Le Divan des Médecins”, which lists 13,600 practitioners, may seem difficult to understand for the uninitiated, the results presented by the trio seem encouraging.

"For the past few weeks, the three of us have prescribed this treatment to all of our coronavirus patients," explains Denis Gastaldi. Personally, this represents more than 200 patients. I have had only two serious cases requiring hospitalization which have since been released. Obviously, this is not a multicenter, randomized study, but these are very interesting results. If one relies on known data on the disease, out of at least 200 cases, one should have had at least two deaths and around forty hospitalizations. "

Doctor Gastaldi assures that his patient base is made up of patients of all ages, some with additional risk factors (comorbidities) . Doctor Erbstein, who had to deplore six deaths since the beginning of the epidemic in his patient base, notably made up of former miners, explained in the Republican East: “For fifteen days that I have been experimenting with this formula, I have no longer neither death nor hospitalization ”.

Aware of the limits of their approach

In addition to the absence of study mentioned by the practitioner, the trio is perfectly aware of the limits in terms of researching its approach. The cases treated have not been tested positive for Covid-19, contrary to what Professor Raoult is putting in place, and for good reason, patients in city offices do not enter the beneficiaries of the tests defined by the health authorities strategy.

Dr. Gastaldi himself was affected by Covid-19, as confirmed by a serological test which he has carried out since. He self-prescribed his protocol. “I was not well on Friday and on Monday I worked. It may not be due to the treatment, but it is the feedback that almost all the patients to whom I apply: after three days, they tell me that they are fine. "

Unlike hydroxychloroquine, whose cardiac effects are reported , the doctor is reassuring about the experimented protocol and hopes that it will develop in the medical community: "Azithromycin is widely prescribed every winter in children and adults , without side effects. There is no reason to deprive yourself of it at the first symptom. It would be great to save lives! "

A message rather addressed to his fellow practitioners than a candidacy for a Nobel Prize in medicine. "It is not at all our role to enter into a protocol of validation by the authorities, believes the doctor Mosellan. I will tell you, the studies that will give us results in six months, when the epidemic is over, I don't care. What interests me are my patients. Inevitably, this will enter a protocol at some point, coming back to the ears of specialists, but we must be humble. We are in Lorraine, in Moselle, in the North, we try to do our job as best as possible, so that there are as few deaths as possible. "

link of this article for french people

 

Coronavirus : trois médecins généralistes pensent avoir trouvé un possible remède

WWW.LEPARISIEN.FR

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Deux médecins du Grand Est et une du Nord ont mis en place un protocole de soin à base d’azithromycine. Avec, disent-ils, des...

 

[moos54]

At the beginning i had read this article 

A Moselle doctor notes the effectiveness of an azithromycin-based protocol

Two Moselle doctors and one of their Belgian sisters seem to have developed an effective drug combination against the coronavirus. Relying on azithromycin without resorting to the hydroxychloroquine advocated by the infectiologist Didier Raoult, they noted a clear drop in hospitalizations for their treated patients.

 

He walks like a wolf knowing the thorny subject, but he is none the less enthusiastic. General practitioner at Créhange, Jean-Jacques Erbstein tested on his patients affected by the coronavirus, a medication protocol excluding the controversial hydroxychloroquine, but highlighting azithromycin which also enters into the therapeutic combination advocated by the professor from Marseille Didier Raoult. And his observations are amazing. "For the past fifteen days that I have been experimenting with this formula, I have no longer died or been hospitalized," says the practitioner.

Cautious

The treatment, combining several active substances, stems from discussions conducted on the medical Facebook group "Le Divan des médecins" with a Mosellan colleague, Denis Gastaldi, and a Belgian colleague, Olivia Van Steen Berghe. “We thought about therapeutic alternatives together, saying that when it comes to hydroxychloroquine, we would remain cautious. Professor Raoult speaks of an association between hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin. However, this last drug, I know it very well and I like it very much because it has three recognized properties: it is an antibiotic of the family of macrolides, it stimulates an antiviral reaction whereas it is not a antiviral, and it has an anti-inflammatory action on the lungs. I prescribe it for long-term people who have chronic bronchitis because it avoids secondary infections and iterative hospitalizations. "

With azithromycin, Jean-Jacques Erbstein combined Singulair, a molecule used in the treatment of asthma for its anti-inflammatory action. "Then, we thought about incorporating zinc into the protocol to strengthen the action of azithromycin," continues the doctor. Then, lastly, in order to curb the complications of phlebitis and pulmonary embolism, a daily injection of an anticoagulant, heparin, was added to the protocol at a "preventive dose".

Empirical method

“Since applying this protocol, it's simple, we no longer have hospitalization. I have had positive feedback on around thirty patients. Doctor Gastaldi, over a hundred. And Doctor Olivia Van Steen Berghe, also in his thirties, "enumerates Jean-Jacques Erbstein, while specifying that his conclusions are not based on a consolidated scientific study:" Of course, there is no comparison. Our method is very empirical. But the result is there. "

Treatment is given at the start of the disease when the infection is diagnosed. "Coincidence, the fruit of chance, I don't know ... In any case, it seems to be going well", concludes the therapist who has systematized his medication and is convinced that there is material for further reflection on the use of this antibiotic against Covid-19 at a time when everyone is "focusing on hydroxychloroquine, without really taking an interest in azithromycin", predominant in Professor Raoult's protocol.

link for french people 

 

Coronavirus | Un médecin mosellan constate l’efficacité d’un protocole à base d’azithromycine

WWW.ESTREPUBLICAIN.FR

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Deux médecins mosellans et l’une de leurs consœurs belges semblent avoir mis au point une combinaison médicamenteuse...

 

[Ridgerunner]

2 hours ago, moos54 said:

From what I read from the WHO, covid-19 would be ten times more deadly than a simple flu, so I let you do the calculations on the potential mortality without confinement of the population as we know it right now
Yes, there will surely be negative effects once this crisis is over, but for the moment the urgency is the protection of the population
After the difference is that in France we have more job security and better compensation even if we lose money

The problem with confinement is that there is no collective immunity and without that you must be able to immunize the population with a vaccine without having to want to have a second wave of mortality

it's true that the repercussions are going to be hard for the world after, In the end, there is no miracle solution and you have to make choices 

I'm not opposed to the economy presently being closed, but at some point it needs to open. Social programs can give people money when they are not working, but eventually that money will be worthless if there is nothing to buy.  If no one is working, how do products get produced?  No matter how well we plan I guarantee you people will die from the coronavirus once economies open, so some plan needs to be devised that allows us to open the economy while at the same time limiting the number of deaths.  Believing that we need to get to the point where no one dies from covid-19 before we can open the economy means that the economy will never open.