The Climate Change Thread

[itsme]

10 hours ago, Thestarider said:

They are armed, why if their job is to protect the environment would they need to be armed ? 

Here is my true story, In 2008 while bringing a new bio mass electric plant online, I had a visit from one of these environment inspectors. I live in SW Kansas, and I was working the Oklahoma Panhandle building this small biomass electric plant which burns residual crops and landfill waste and produces 25 MW of electric power. The location was about 2 miles from a small University that is known for it's championship rodeo team.

I am sure you familiar with the dirty 30's and the blowing dust. Well when a thunderstorm blows up out here in God's country the dust still blows and you see the storm coming from miles. We had several days of these evening thunderstorms blow up one week in the summer of 2008, and this was while we were bringing this new cutting edge power plant online. The plants burns like I said residual crops and landfill waste, thus making 900psi steam for a turbine generator. 

A couple days after the storms a unmarked car pulls onto the location and I was called to the guard shack, I thought what the hell an unmarked government car. A guy gets out wearing a gun and flashing a badge, at this point I assumed it was cop or OSBI or something of that nature. The guy meets me at the gate and demands entrance into the facility, stating he was with US environmental service. I brought him into my office and he said that he was there to investigate the exposure incident of this time period. I asked exactly what incident he was referring to, and he said the one where produced Acidic rain that cover the University with contamination.

I at this point was very confused, as well as at a loss for words. I sad to him sir, well to the best of knowledge we have had no exposure incident. He then produced several pictures of vehicles and windows of the university that had large brown dots all over them. I looked at them, then looked out the window at one of then large water trucks that we were using to finish the grading before pouring the last of the concrete, it too had these large brown dots all over it. 

 I began to laugh, the investigator took offense to my laughter and told me point blank that he would shut this project down which he stated a few times was well within his authority, if he didn't get some answers as to why this incident happened. I took him out to the truck and we wiped a few of the spots on a white cloth. He looked and felt and even sniffed the white cloth, and then said what is this stuff all over this vehicle?

I said MUD BALLS !!! this pissed him off and he got very angry with me. He stated that our SCR system was not working, could have been working to cause these to get all over everything. and that we could no longer continue to operate the facility until we corrected the issues and reapplied to EPA for an emissions control permit. 

I said to him very calmly this was not from our plant but from the good lord and skies above. He again got all bent out of shape and I told him to have it analyzed, that he had my permission to take swabs or any other kind sampling he wanted to do to find out what the spots were made of. I again began to laugh as I have seen it rain mudballs many times in my life on the great plains. Of course nothing came out of it was just dirt and water.

We were turned in by a liberal professor at the university from back east who never seen the phenomenon of raining mud balls. I guess this inspector also had never seen or heard of such a thing.

Why do environmental agents of EPA need to carry guns, because they are fucking idiots that is why.

I am laughing again as I write this knowing it takes all kinds to make the world go around.

Just one of many real life cases of Political Science vs. Climate Science.

That guy was obviously an idiot. That doesn't mean that climate change isn't real or that the EPA shouldn't exist. There are a myriad of examples of cops taking similarly aggressive and confrontational approaches in situations where it's completely unnecessary or where they didn't take the time to fully understand the situation. Do you feel the same way about overzealous cops? Should we get rid of them too? On a side note 25MW for a bio mass plant sounds impressive as hell. 

[itsme]

10 hours ago, Foamy T. Squirrel said:

I like profits. It represents a surplus that can be invested to hire more people or to develop better technology that increases productivity. In this way money is redistributed based on merit. It works so well that there is money left over to help the infirm and needy. This is called charity. The only  way you can obtain profits in free-enterprise capitalism is through extreme thrift and efficiency.  That means zero waste. Wasteful people and corporations go out of business because they can't compete.

Governments aren't free-enterprise capitalist. They are a state-capitalist organization that can use force to do as they please. They do not have to produce anything, and they don't need profits. Through the miracle of governmental coercive force, they can derive their sustenance by taking it from their people who produce the surplus. They can also take it from other governments -- we call this "war."

War is extremely wasteful, and really bad for the environment and bad for business. War industries are the exception, but they are sustained by tax-payer money and are in league with the government, whether they are Bomb Inc., or People's Factory #11. Hence, these also are State Capitalist organizations.

The US still has a bit of Free-Enterprise Capitalism. Last year economic productivity increased substantially, while US emissions decreased. This flies in the face of those who support the toothless and useless Paris and Kyoto environmental accords.

The only  way you can obtain profits in free-enterprise capitalism is through extreme thrift and efficiency.

The problem is that "efficiency" doesn't equal environmentally friendly. Sure it's more efficient for companies to dump toxic waste in the local river than to pay for proper eco friendly disposal, but it's terrible for the environment. To suggest that companies won't pollute the environment because it's bad for business simply isn't true. Disposing of waste in an environmentally friendly way is expensive, and many companies do whatever they can to skirt environmental regulations. There are thousands of examples throughout history of companies knowingly causing long term environmental damage. Companies should be held responsible when they break the law and damage the environment. There are leftover sites all over the  country from big industry that are too polluted to do anything with, and the only way to clean them up is to spend millions or billions in taxpayer funds long after the company has gone bankrupt or moved away. We need regulation and regulators to keep companies in check, and we need to punish those who break the law.   I really don't understand the rights push to reduce or eliminate environmental protections while also making it more difficult to hold companies responsible for the damage that they cause. 

[happyone]

14 hours ago, itsme said:

The only  way you can obtain profits in free-enterprise capitalism is through extreme thrift and efficiency.

The problem is that "efficiency" doesn't equal environmentally friendly. Sure it's more efficient for companies to dump toxic waste in the local river than to pay for proper eco friendly disposal, but it's terrible for the environment. To suggest that companies won't pollute the environment because it's bad for business simply isn't true. Disposing of waste in an environmentally friendly way is expensive, and many companies do whatever they can to skirt environmental regulations. There are thousands of examples throughout history of companies knowingly causing long term environmental damage. Companies should be held responsible when they break the law and damage the environment. There are leftover sites all over the  country from big industry that are too polluted to do anything with, and the only way to clean them up is to spend millions or billions in taxpayer funds long after the company has gone bankrupt or moved away. We need regulation and regulators to keep companies in check, and we need to punish those who break the law.   I really don't understand the rights push to reduce or eliminate environmental protections while also making it more difficult to hold companies responsible for the damage that they cause. 

I can agree with most of this, but saying that efficiency" doesn't equal environmentally friendly is not entirely accurate--a company can be efficient and environmentally friendly--I ran one for 36 years.

So, saying efficiency" doesn't always equal environmentally friendly might be more accurate.   

As far as the EPA is concerned, we do need laws to protect the environment, but the EPA needs someone to control them so not to go overboard in their regulations which might severely cripple an economy .

.  

[Thestarider]

15 hours ago, itsme said:

That guy was obviously an idiot. That doesn't mean that climate change isn't real or that the EPA shouldn't exist. There are a myriad of examples of cops taking similarly aggressive and confrontational approaches in situations where it's completely unnecessary or where they didn't take the time to fully understand the situation. Do you feel the same way about overzealous cops? Should we get rid of them too? On a side note 25MW for a bio mass plant sounds impressive as hell. 

I absolutely do feel the same about the Law Enforcement with an attitude, just because they carry a gun doesn't give the right to an asshole.

I also agree that the EPA is organization that US could not do without, but with all things political there needs to balance, the EPA was skewed under the President Obama and his administration. The US doesn't have the environmental issues of the 70's and 80's that it once had. We for most part are very attentive to clean air and water. I can not say that for the rest of world. China and India for example are now where we in the US were in the 50's and 60's but unwilling to really address the problem, as well as some of the more populated countries of South America.

With all that being said, with 7 billion people in the world, we make a very minor footprint in our climate compared normal cyclical cycles of the weather. Our sun and oscillations of the earth effect the weather in normal cycles. If you study history you will see in the mid 1800's Europe and Nordic countries were in a mini Ice age. The oceans emit far grater amounts of CO/2 than anything, and if you are really concerned about CO/2 then you will have to address 70 percent of the earth. You see itsme, it's really Political Science vs. Climate Science. Politicians make money off of Political Science, and Climate Science wants to understand the weather.

BTW the Biomass 25 MW plant is mothballed and is just big white elephant now, and has been for several years now, I think it operated for about 3 years until the government subsidies ran out, then the company went bankrupt.

[TBG 150]

2 hours ago, Thestarider said:

I absolutely do feel the same about the Law Enforcement with an attitude, just because they carry a gun doesn't give the right to an asshole.

 

I only want to address this one line.

True, there are, like with any agency that allows it's people to have the power of detention of a public citizen, rouge asshole cops.

But, have you ever seen the rudeness and disrespect that Police Officers get? They can be as nice to the Joe Public asshole as can be and Joe asshole has to cuss out the cop, shoot at him, spit in his face and call him/her every derogatory name in the book. If you are fucking up, you deserve what you get. 

I don't care if you do think the officer is a punk kid, because you are an old fart, or the other way around. Respect the uniform, just as the uniform should respect the public.

If you are pulled over by a Trooper or other Officer, treat that person with respect and act like a lady or a gentlemen and there is a real good chance that you will be told you were going a little fast and to slow it down or you have a burned out tail light. Act like a dirtbag and you are not going to go home that night/day.

[Thestarider]

5 minutes ago, TBG 150 said:

I only want to address this one line.

True, there are, like with any agency that allows it's people to have the power of detention of a public citizen, rouge asshole cops.

But, have you ever seen the rudeness and disrespect that Police Officers get? They can be as nice to the Joe Public asshole as can be and Joe asshole has to cuss out the cop, shoot at him, spit in his face and call him/her every derogatory name in the book. If you are fucking up, you deserve what you get. 

I don't care if you do think the officer is a punk kid, because you are an old fart, or the other way around. Respect the uniform, just as the uniform should respect the public.

If you are pulled over by a Trooper or other Officer, treat that person with respect and act like a lady or a gentlemen and there is a real good chance that you will be told you were going a little fast and to slow it down or you have a burned out tail light. Act like a dirtbag and you are not going to go home that night/day.

Agreed a little respect goes a long way.

[BBsq69]

On 12/12/2018 at 6:12 PM, Thestarider said:

With all that being said, with 7 billion people in the world, we make a very minor footprint in our climate compared normal cyclical cycles of the weather.

Absolute twaddle. I know I'm wasting my time with someone who believes any piece of right wing PROPAGANDA and climate change should not be political but it is. The idea that scientists put these theories forward in the mid 20th century was for political reasons displays ignorance I just can't cope with. It's science. Or course spirally into a greenhouse effect is not provable any more than standing in the middle of a road for a day will inevitably lead to your death but what you have to understand is risk. Outside the risk of catastrophe is tangible damage which might happen anyway but doing nothing is pretty much a guarantee.
In the history of the earth it is MINOR, because for a large part of earth's history at certain latitudes and at sometimes all of them humans would simply have not survived. BUT and I must stress this life could be come incredibly uncomfortable for many people and will be fatal for a number of species which as a right winger you are unlikely to care about - don't ask me to understand mentality but there was some scientific study about left wing and right wing brains which explained what causes the lack of empathy in one and maybe the over abundance in the other. I have explained this many times but CHAOS THEORY studies MINOR changes. MINOR changes that are caused in this scenario by man. That is what we are discussing here, not what happened a million years ago and not in a million years but NOW.
There was a mini ice age from the 14th-19th century but even at the trough it didn't drop below about 0.5K to what it had previously been over the previous millenium in the 1800s about 0.2K. In the last 50 years it has already risen 0.8K and continues to rise rapidly. Other factors MAY come and save us but to attribute most of this rise (and the science is clear and unquestionable on this) to anything other than man made changes is desperate and has no basis in real science. 

[BBsq69]

On 12/12/2018 at 8:31 PM, TBG 150 said:

True, there are, like with any agency that allows it's people to have the power of detention of a public citizen, rouge asshole cops.

But, have you ever seen the rudeness and disrespect that Police Officers get? They can be as nice to the Joe Public asshole as can be and Joe asshole has to cuss out the cop, shoot at him, spit in his face and call him/her every derogatory name in the book. If you are fucking up, you deserve what you get. 

I don't care if you do think the officer is a punk kid, because you are an old fart, or the other way around. Respect the uniform, just as the uniform should respect the public.

If you are pulled over by a Trooper or other Officer, treat that person with respect and act like a lady or a gentlemen and there is a real good chance that you will be told you were going a little fast and to slow it down or you have a burned out tail light. Act like a dirtbag and you are not going to go home that night/day.

Well said. I did have a friend who was beaten up by some policemen. The way he described it to me was that he had got in some argument in the pub with a man who happened to be a policemen. Later he was pulled over and out came the man and his mates to knock him about a bit - the actual phrase was more colloquial - but I know the guy and he could be a bit arsey. My grandfather was a policeman who could be a bit scary - he was also a top athlete and despite having short legs was 6 foot with 18 stones of muscle - so I've never had any trouble with the respect element myself. In fact I have managed to talk my way out of a difficult situation with a couple of mates claiming they didn't know what was going on by being completely honest with them. People who attack law enforcement officers, firefighters and medical staff are the lowest of the low. You get bad eggs in every profession but these people have to take shit from dickheads all day long so sometimes they might have reached the end of their tether.

[Maturin]

25 minutes ago, BBsq69 said:

Absolute twaddle. I know I'm wasting my time with someone who believes any piece of right wing PROPAGANDA and climate change should not be political but it is. The idea that scientists put these theories forward in the mid 20th century was for political reasons displays ignorance I just can't cope with. It's science. Or course spirally into a greenhouse effect is not provable any more than standing in the middle of a road for a day will inevitably lead to your death but what you have to understand is risk. Outside the risk of catastrophe is tangible damage which might happen anyway but doing nothing is pretty much a guarantee.
In the history of the earth it is MINOR, because for a large part of earth's history at certain latitudes and at sometimes all of them humans would simply have not survived. BUT and I must stress this life could be come incredibly uncomfortable for many people and will be fatal for a number of species which as a right winger you are unlikely to care about - don'task me to understand mentality but there was some scientific study about left wing and right wing brains which explained what causes the lack of empathy in one and maybe the over abundance in the other. I have explained this many times but CHAOS THEORY studies MINOR changes. MINOR changes that are caused in this scenario by man. That is what we are discussing here, not what happened a million years ago and not in a million years but NOW.
There was a mini ice age from the 14th-19th century but even at the trough it didn't drop below about 0.5K to what it had previously been over the previous millenium in the 1800s about 0.2K. In the last 50 years it has already risen 0.8K and continues to rise rapidly. Other factors MAY come and save us but to attribute most of this rise (and the science is clear and unquestionable on this) to anything other than man made changes is desperate and has no basis in real science. 

You're right, you are wasting your time with people like these. Look at the positions these God-fearing, climate-change-denying, gas-guzzling, low-education, white supremacists take on absolutely everything. Look hard enough and you'll see there is one link that ties them all together and explains why these people believe the obvious lies that they are told  - convenience.

From climate change to Trump through social inequality or unionising to get their fair share of the wealth that they create - they can't be fucking bothered. It is inconvenient to them to change their way of existing or to fight even for their own rights, so they believe the convenient bullshit that's pumped out by the right-wing media machine (which is well aware of their ignorance) that keeps them docile. They spend far more energy attacking people that threaten to break their unfounded beliefs than they do working to secure the future of the planet for themselves and their children.

I reckon you know this very well already @BBsq69 but I'm not just preaching to the choir, check out the replies to this message and yours that will come from the right-wing attack slugs that fester in this forum, it will prove my point to them! They sit at home safely behind their keyboards with the metaphorical fingers in their ears spreading hate and white-supremacy, meanwhile getting angry at the truth whilst the convenient lies that they believe continue to fuck them over!!

 

[Thestarider]

4 hours ago, Maturin said:

You're right, you are wasting your time with people like these. Look at the positions these God-fearing, climate-change-denying, gas-guzzling, low-education, white supremacists take on absolutely everything. Look hard enough and you'll see there is one link that ties them all together and explains why these people believe the obvious lies that they are told  - convenience.

From climate change to Trump through social inequality or unionising to get their fair share of the wealth that they create - they can't be fucking bothered. It is inconvenient to them to change their way of existing or to fight even for their own rights, so they believe the convenient bullshit that's pumped out by the right-wing media machine (which is well aware of their ignorance) that keeps them docile. They spend far more energy attacking people that threaten to break their unfounded beliefs than they do working to secure the future of the planet for themselves and their children.

I reckon you know this very well already @BBsq69 but I'm not just preaching to the choir, check out the replies to this message and yours that will come from the right-wing attack slugs that fester in this forum, it will prove my point to them! They sit at home safely behind their keyboards with the metaphorical fingers in their ears spreading hate and white-supremacy, meanwhile getting angry at the truth whilst the convenient lies that they believe continue to fuck them over!!

 

The only attacking being done here is by you Maturin, the rest is a debate on both of the positions on a topic of discussion, this is something you seem to be completely incapable of because you believe that anyone that disagrees with your position is uneducated or in your words(God-fearing, climate-change-denying, gas-guzzling, low-education, white supremacists). Political Science or Climate Science...… You be the judge ? When you get the rest of the polluting countries of the world to even come close to the restrictions in place in the United States and Europe, then I will be willing to talk with you as the Unites States of America is doing their part, far more than China, Russia, India, or any of the other overpopulated countries that seem not to care about Global Warming, or as it now called Climate Change, or what will the political hacks call it in the next ten years, so they can sell their theories to the easy soft minded who think they are really educated, but in reality they are just as you stated, sold on bill of goods that is called political science and not real climate science, I suppose Al Gore was right with his scientific backed predictions, and now you want us to believe that world will end as we know it in 12 years ? Sounds like the overeducated Y2K theory to me. Enough said. I am proud of my BA in Mechanical Engineering.

[Thestarider]

On 3/19/2019 at 1:06 PM, BBsq69 said:

Absolute twaddle. I know I'm wasting my time with someone who believes any piece of right wing PROPAGANDA and climate change should not be political but it is. The idea that scientists put these theories forward in the mid 20th century was for political reasons displays ignorance I just can't cope with. It's science. Or course spirally into a greenhouse effect is not provable any more than standing in the middle of a road for a day will inevitably lead to your death but what you have to understand is risk. Outside the risk of catastrophe is tangible damage which might happen anyway but doing nothing is pretty much a guarantee.
In the history of the earth it is MINOR, because for a large part of earth's history at certain latitudes and at sometimes all of them humans would simply have not survived. BUT and I must stress this life could be come incredibly uncomfortable for many people and will be fatal for a number of species which as a right winger you are unlikely to care about - don't ask me to understand mentality but there was some scientific study about left wing and right wing brains which explained what causes the lack of empathy in one and maybe the over abundance in the other. I have explained this many times but CHAOS THEORY studies MINOR changes. MINOR changes that are caused in this scenario by man. That is what we are discussing here, not what happened a million years ago and not in a million years but NOW.
There was a mini ice age from the 14th-19th century but even at the trough it didn't drop below about 0.5K to what it had previously been over the previous millenium in the 1800s about 0.2K. In the last 50 years it has already risen 0.8K and continues to rise rapidly. Other factors MAY come and save us but to attribute most of this rise (and the science is clear and unquestionable on this) to anything other than man made changes is desperate and has no basis in real science. 

BB my friends listen the this Nobel Laurate explain climate change.

And this highly educated Professor.

And this extremely educated Physicist

 

The founder of the weather channel

This article is interesting;

Nobel Laureate Economists and Expert Psychologists Fail at Stopping Climate Change says Friends of Science Society

WWW.PRWEB.COM

---

CALGARY, Alberta (PRWEB) January 24, 2019 -- The Wall Street Journal statement by a bevy of high-profile economists claiming an open-ended...

Clearly you must understand that this is food for thought and deserves equal evaluation in this debate.

 

[ipiratemedia]

3 hours ago, Maturin said:

You're right, you are wasting your time with people like these. Look at the positions these God-fearing, climate-change-denying, gas-guzzling, low-education, white supremacists take on absolutely everything. Look hard enough and you'll see there is one link that ties them all together and explains why these people believe the obvious lies that they are told  - convenience.

From climate change to Trump through social inequality or unionising to get their fair share of the wealth that they create - they can't be fucking bothered. It is inconvenient to them to change their way of existing or to fight even for their own rights, so they believe the convenient bullshit that's pumped out by the right-wing media machine (which is well aware of their ignorance) that keeps them docile. They spend far more energy attacking people that threaten to break their unfounded beliefs than they do working to secure the future of the planet for themselves and their children.

I reckon you know this very well already @BBsq69 but I'm not just preaching to the choir, check out the replies to this message and yours that will come from the right-wing attack slugs that fester in this forum, it will prove my point to them! They sit at home safely behind their keyboards with the metaphorical fingers in their ears spreading hate and white-supremacy, meanwhile getting angry at the truth whilst the convenient lies that they believe continue to fuck them over!!

 

It's ok to believe what you like, want and care about Maturin. Self-righteous individuals are often intolerant of the opinions and behaviors of others, that's obvious. (usually smug) Is a feeling or display of moral superiority derived from a sense that your beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person. (Sententious is a better word) IMO - The way you think is so much different than others, and I think that’s awesome to be such a freethinker like us all!